GENEALOGY-DNA-L Archives

Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2003-10 > 1067001325


From: Shane <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Tribes of Britain [G* & I]
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 08:18:38 -0500
In-Reply-To: <04da01c39a1a$5b088ca0$bb9eddcb@Grant>


On 10/24/03 5:34 AM, "Palden" <> wrote:

> Hi all!
>
> I would like to put forward that G* is not associated with Anglo-Saxons.
> Further I believe the G2 subclade is what is being seen in the Middle East not
> G*.
>
> G* has been in the 'Isles' for sometime, well before the so called 'Invaders'
> DNA was introduced.
>
> I believe this is so, as it is seen to lesser and greater degree's in England
> 2%, Scotland and Southern Ireland 5% and Northern Ireland 20%.
>
> Patrick Guinness of the Irish Clans Project run out of Trinity College,
> Dublin, has written on this.
>
> In the 'Isles' I believe G* to be Celt's for these reason's.
>
> The ancient Tribes of Britain were formed well before the Romans, who
> commented on them.
> These people were already an admixture of R1b and G*. G* being early Neolithic
> man in the 'Isles'.
>
> It was this admixture too whom the Romans refer to as the Celtic Tribes, when
> they arrived, [Keltoi derived from Greek].
>
> We know historically that from the continental Celtic heart-land of Europe,
> across northern Spain to Germany and down to the Alp's, arose the Hallstatt
> and La Tene cultures from the earlier, Breaker and Battle Axe cultures. Two
> migration patterns are seen for the ancient Celtic tribes from the La Tene and
> Hallstatt cultures by 400 BCE. One going north into the 'Isles' and another
> going south into northern Italy and then Rome [ca. 390 BCE.], another across
> to the Balkans and then down further through Delphi in Greece [ca. 279 BCE.]
> and then on into Galatia in Turkey [ca.276 BCE.].
>
> The R1b of the Basque and that of the Irish and Welsh is most similar, I put
> forward the basic stock of most of England and Scotland [Pict's] are also of
> these aboriginal representatives of the Beaker and Battle Axe cultures.
>
> Historians believe that the later, La Tene Celts who established Galicia in
> Spain, were the same Gaels who later went to Ireland and met the so called
> Proto-Celtic people, R1b into R1b & G*.
>
> We know that the La Tene Celts who established Gaul in France and Belgium,
> were the same Celts whom went to England and from England also went to Ireland
> from a southern route across the Irish sea from Wales, Anglesey, Mann to
> Ireland. And another northern route across from Scotland to Northern Ireland,
> and then back again to the Scottish Hebrides and Highlands.
> The Romans referred to the Celtic tribes of the East coast of Britain as
> Belgae, identifying them as members of the Gallia Belgica Celtic tribes of
> northern France/Belgium.
>
> The basic DNA stock of Palaeolithic Britain and Ireland was the same stock as
> the Celtic heart-land of Europe. So when subsequent Celtic migrations took
> place these new people to the 'Isles' met with ancestral cousins, whom took on
> the new Celtic cultures of the continent. Of course predominately in the
> north when these new continental Celts/Gaels made contact with there cousins
> they came in contact with an ancestral admixture of R1b/G*. This is supported
> by Neolithic settlements, which in Ireland are found mostly in Ulster, the
> earliest being dated ca. 4000 BCE. Where today we find Neolithic descendants
> identified as HgG*.
>
> In terms of aboriginality [R1b] the first people to be in Scotland and Ireland
> are dated ca. 8000 BCE. Neolithic migration [G*] dated ca. 4000 BCE and
> continued over the next 3000 years. In approx 600 BCE the Celt's came to
> Scotland and Ireland, which shaped their cultures until the present. These
> continental Celts, like later colonists, did not replace the people they came
> in contact with.
>
> It is becoming increasingly apparent that those who are so called Haplogroup I
> found in Gaelic/Celtic areas will need to test their SNP's, for it to be
> confirmed. As 'I' and 'G*' share many similarities being both Neolithic. It
> just so happens that the regional populations that Proto-Celtic G* is found
> are the same areas where HgI within the vehicle of the Invaders also later
> came to settle. Ancestral Neolithic cousins on either side of northern
> colonisation. G* DNA on the Celtic side, 'I' DNA on the side of the Invaders.
>
> We see a very faint hint of G in Westphalia, Germany being an area of both
> Hallstatt and La Tene cultures. As 'G' is not found further north, suggests
> that it was not associated with the Neolithic migrations which we now know HgI
> represents.
>
> G has been associated with the Middle East and in terms of the subclade G2
> this seems to be so. But G is found further north from the Caucasus Mountains
> through Central Asia on towards India.
>
> There is seen two migrations routes for HgG, one is as we know, to northern
> Europe and another into South East Asia, suggesting that HgG is to be found
> around Pakistan/India being a mid-point of migration, as suggested by
> FamilyTree.
>
> As in the case of 'The Vikings' as a culture and society having two
> Haplogroup's, one Palaeolithic and the other Neolithic.
> Similarly the same should be said for 'The Celt's' as a culture and society.
>
> Celtic=R1b & G*
> Viking/Angle and Saxon=R1a & I. [As put forward by the 'Blood of the Vikings'
> study]
> Angle and Saxon/Roman-Mid Eastern=J2 & G2.
> North African/Mid Eastern= E3a & E3b.
>
> If anybody has found HgI in their surname studies in traditional area's of
> Celtic cultures I would be interested in seeing these results and comparing
> them to confirmed G* STR's via SNP testing.
>
> Again it was the R1b&G* admixture, which were referred to as the Celt's
>
> I look forward to your replies.
> Grant South
>
>
>
>
>Grant,

Very informative. And it will take me several readings to fully digest the
details. Is any of this based on academic information? Thanks for posting.

Shane


This thread: