Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2004-05 > 1084399854

From: David Faux <>
Subject: RE: [DNA] Haplotype "Q" in Shetland Islands, Vikings, and Picts
Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 15:10:54 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <001701c4385c$648067e0$7c00a8c0@William>

Hello Bill:

You have offered a lot of food for thought in your post. For a brief time I thought I would have to dump all my assumptions and start from scratch!. If the Kurgan people (likely to have primarily R1a Y chromosomes) from the present day Ukraine did in fact make it as far as Shetland ......................... it would create a potential mess as to interpretation of Shetlanders haplotypes. I realized, however, that any movement of these peoples would have to follow the land route via Mainland Britain (where the R1a haplotype is clearly a stamp of Viking presence). There is no way that in 3-6000BC that they could have crossed the North Sea from the Norway, Holland or anywhere else. Realistically, the haplotypes of early Britain (R1b largely, with perhaps some G, J, E2 etc. in very small quantities) would be what we would see in the Picts - likely the same blue tatooed folk as we saw in "Braveheart" and a tribe of the Mainland Celts. Their arrival at an early date could eas!
ily be
explained by island hopping to Orkney then Shetland.

I would need a huge sample of skeletal material to work with - although this is an excellent idea and will run it by my colleague. Unless Pictish mtDNA haplotypes were highly influenced by the founder effect and genetic drift (entirely possible I guess) then it would be a real crap shoot if we could match a unique Northern Isles haplotype in one of our participants with that of material recovered from archaeologically dated skeletal material.

As to haplotype Q, my colleague and I do not necessarily agree on the origins of same, but we do both believe that it reached Orkney, Shetland, and Iceland with the Norse Vikings. Otherwise we need to await SNP testing to find out if we are seeing Q3, then in all probability we have been looking at Inuit haplotypes (now this would cause a stir to say the least). It is odd that Q has been found scattered along the coast of Norway, but not in the surrounding countries through which the Central or East Asians would have to have travelled. This finding has opened up a bit of a can of worms, and begs for an explanation.

BTW thanks for the references which I will keep to assess when time permits. Much appreciated.


Lowe DNA <> wrote:

"no DNA work on the scant skeletal material that has
survived.....Considering that we are finding what we think are Pictish mtDNA
motifs - this would be a great cross validation."

I would think that Cambridge, Oxford or the University of Edinburgh would
have genetics or archeological departments could provide the skeletal or
tissue remains to create a genetic NRY and mtDNA profile of the Picts or
earlier peoples that matches the known archeological record(s)...

This European timeline doesn't mention Picts until the Roman occupation but
they must have been there much earlier per your Pictish mtDNA...

I see the "earlier?" Celts of supposed Indo-European Kurgin ancestry
(2000BC-600BC)....but don't know if the Picts were there earlier or were
actually a separate Celtic tribe...And who were the settlers of 3000BC in
Scara Brae in the Orkneys as cited in this bookmark below.......

However,I had assumed that the Haplogroup Q folks came later with the
Vikings in the 8th century....However do you and Jim Wilson believe that
these Altai ancestors migrated there earlier as part of the 3000 BC Kurgan
migration west into Europe and Britain...and into the Orkneys..

Must do some more reading to understand this entire history as each Brit
seems to have their own colorful history of the Picts and this time reading one of our Old West dime novels.....

Perhaps your DNA research can shed some light into these "legends"..


Dr. David K. Faux, P.O. Box 192, Seal Beach, CA, 90740, USA

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