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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2004-06 > 1086151412


From: "Bernd Burgey" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Differentiating I1c and I1a
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 01:44:32 -0300
References: <a06020402bce27ec29a8d@[194.125.131.44]> <BAY4-DAV116fvOXvxDZ00014f01@hotmail.com> <001b01c4484d$675c4b40$085db18e@c1k4r6> <002301c4484f$4fb78520$53e289d1@Ken1>


Hello Ken.

I guess I should have made clear why I posted my replay.
I don't think there is a I1c *originating* in Germany, like Mr.
Hamman (5/31) proposed. And there are linguistic similarities too.
The Engl. Bury has the same meaning like the Swiss Burgy. There are
hundreds of Mennonite Burgey', Burgy,s and Burgi,s living in the US.
Another Mennonite Hotspot goes from Munster, Westphalia north to the
Netherlands which got mirrored in the I1c distribution too. I think
the I1c in Germany could be traced back to the Swiss.
Just something that crossed my mind.

Bernard


----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
To: <>
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 12:10 AM
Subject: Re: [DNA] Differentiating I1c and I1a


> Bernd, Can you share some of your repeat numbers at some key
loci? Or are
> you obviously R1b?
>
> Ken
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bernd Burgey" <>
> To: <>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2004 8:57 PM
> Subject: Re: [DNA] Differentiating I1c and I1a
>
>
> > Now we are getting somewhere: Back to square one! The brick wall
I'm
> > pounding my head on just got raised another foot, because of
I1c!
> > My whole DNA Excursion was based in solving the mystery of my
> > forefathers beyond the paper trail which fads out between 1700
and
> > 1600.
> > My Grandpa told me that his ancestors had to live England
because of
> > there *Catholic* religion. After many years of research I
thought it
> > looks more like Mennonites from the Swiss. But there was no real
> > paper proof either! And I could not fully disregard the British
> > Isles, because of some hints:
> > My family name *Burgey* with variations is found in the British
> > Isles as well in the Swiss area around Bern! The Highland of
Bern
> > are THE Mennonite Hotspot! But the first known Burgey,Barke,
Barkey
> > immigrated from Westphalia to the Pfalz [Palatinate] on the left
> > side of the river Rhine. His occupation was *Tobacco maker* in
1656!
> > That's when the first tobacco was introduced in Germany on his
Way
> > from England over the Netherlands.
> > There is more to this I1c story: After the 30 years war in
Germany
> > (1618 - 1648) large parts of Germany where wiped out and Germany
was
> > resettled. To give one number. In my hometown I found for 1590
in a
> > tax census 105 family names. Some of it had three to five
Families.
> > After the war there where 7 [seven] names left. It was worst in
the
> > left side of the Rhine. Many Villages just disappeared and where
> > never rebuild. In this empty space moved within the next few
years
> > over
> > 50 000 Mennonites from the Swiss Highland of Bern. Everything
points
> > to Celtic stock. I think it was Mrs. Siiri Rootsi who says in a
> > different paper: "Mountainous areas are the backwaters of
migration,
> > that's why the Basques survived". The Celts where no worriers.
They
> > where Farmers and retreated before the Germanics peacefully
> > (Tacitus). Some to Spain, others to France and to the British
isles.
> > I guess some Family clans retreated off the beaten path into the
> > Bern Highlands. Now I mach my DYS Numbers with two to three
> > mismatches to Scottish Clans like Stirling and others in
Ireland
> > and stand with my second foot in the Berner Oberland with two to
> > three mismatches and OA tells me my roots are Danish or Anglo
Saxon!
> > What a mess!
> > Is there somewhere a Mennonite DNA Project going on?
> > I had to cut a long story short, because I suspect most of you
know
> > all this anyway, but there would be more to the peopling of
Germany
> > and the Mennonites which finally almost all emigrated to the
States.
> > I hope my upcoming FTDNA Upgrade-results will clear the air.
> > Regards to all
> > Bernard
> >
> > -- Original Message -----
> > From: "DONALD MILLIGAN" <>
> > To: <>
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2004 7:42 PM
> > Subject: Re: [DNA] Differentiating I1c and I1a
> >
> >
> > > Perhaps, Bronze Age Beaker/Hallstatt folk from Switzerland
similar
> > to the "Archer of Stonehenge" who had garb from Switzerland?
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Patrick Guinness<mailto:>
> > > To:
> >
<mailto:>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2004 11:50 AM
> > > Subject: [DNA] Differentiating I1c and I1a
> > >
> > >
> > > At 3:17 pm +0100 1/6/04, gareth.henson wrote:
> > > >The Y-str database suggests a potential I1c "hotspot" at
Berne,
> > Switzerland
> > > >where 6 out of 91 entries are 0-2 steps from the following
> > haplotype:
> > > >DYS19 = 15, DYS389 = 14,31, DYS390 = 23, DYS391 = 10,
DYS392 =
> > 12, DYS393 =
> > > >14, DYS385 = 15,15.
> > >
> > > Certainly the Irish I1c samples have DYS385 14,15 or 15,15
or
> > 15,16
> > > or 15,17, and "high" 393 *14 or *15. DYS388 is usually *13.
Last
> > > year I thought it was group G.
> > >
> > > I1c doesn't seem to have a cultural / linguistic / area on
which
> > to
> > > hypothesise an invasion or ethnic group. It's been in the
> > British
> > > Isles since before 1AD but some Norse or Anglo-Saxons must
have
> > > brought it west as well. Useful for genealogy as it is rare.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Patrick Guinness
> > >
> > > Reply to: <mailto:>
> > >
> > > http://www.furness-house.com/<http://www.furness-house.com/>;
> > > ======================
> > >
> > >
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