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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2004-07 > 1090470099


From: "Palden" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Fw: DYS 462 Bifurcates Haplogroup I1a
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:21:39 +1000
References: <001901c46f55$8ec51340$aae289d1@Ken1> <000d01c46f77$a73caf60$8c72dccb@Grant> <000901c46f91$119b0690$6ee289d1@Ken1>


Ken,

I am working on the mutation rates from Dennis Garvey's page.

I am in agreement that the approach used to give further definition via slow markers is supportive.

I have been using the standard markers that are covered in studies, as members of the 'Big 6', so I could simply see patterns in as much data as possible.

I am interested in your views on 462, as it is one marker I have not looked at.

All the best.
Grant South

----- Original Message -----
From: Ken Nordtvedt
To:
Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 12:09 PM
Subject: Re: [DNA] Fw: DYS 462 Bifurcates Haplogroup I1a


Grant, Some time you will have to discuss more generally what you have
learned about I1c? Rootsi et al argue that it was "close" to I1a in a
number of ways. And then there is the concentration of I1c in the
Netherlands - Northwest Germany region. Somewhere in my notes I attempted
to find the relative ages of I1c, I1b, and I1a using mutations of the slow
markers from their modal values. I concluded tht I1b was the young one, I1c
the oldest, and I1a in the middle. I don't think Rootsi et al agreed with
me.

Where do you get your mutation rates? They disagree somewhat with a list
Doug McDonald put out in March and which he said he "reverse engineered"
from Sorenson data. I don't know exactly his method, but I know it is
rather complicated unless one has "father/son" mutation data.

McDonald shows 462, 426, 454, 388 and 455 as the slowest mutators.

I am rather excited about the bifurcation of I1a by DYS 462. I will be
publishing this stuff on the I1a website later this week.

Someday I will "watch in the data" my ancestors walk north across central
Europe as the ice cap melts 8000 years ago.

Ken



----- Original Message -----
From: "Palden" <>
To: <>
Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 5:08 PM
Subject: Re: [DNA] Fw: DYS 462 Bifurcates Haplogroup I1a


> Hello Ken,
>
> Great to hear your work is ongoing.
>
> When I have been looking at I1c, I use DYS 393 as an initial marker.
>
> 393 is in all the research and is covered by the different testing
companies.
>
> As 393 has an estimated mutation rate of 0.36, this is slower than DYS462
estimated at 0.43.
>
> Once I have placed results into group's accordingly, I further subdivide
based on the faster markers, 390 at 0.64 and then 394 at 0.61, again because
all the research have such results to compare with.
>
> In I1c 448 at 0.40, conveys a small splinter group. Most in I1c are 20 at
448, but a few are 19. This marker is a little slower than DYS 462 at 0.43.
>
> In the result's for I1c so far, for 462- 12 is common, although I have
seen 1 with 13.
>
> All the best.
> Grant South
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ken Nordtvedt
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 5:04 AM
> Subject: [DNA] Fw: DYS 462 Bifurcates Haplogroup I1a
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ken Nordtvedt
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 8:20 AM
> Subject: DYS 462 Bifurcates Haplogroup I1a
>
>
> One of the slowest mutating Y STR markers being tested is DYS 462. But
only Relative Genetics seems to be including this marker right now; my 37
marker FTDNA haplotype does not include it.
>
> A very slow-mutating marker usually has a common value (with tiny
fraction of mutations to neighboring values) throughout a haplogroup or even
throughout a collection of haplogroups sitting close together in the great
human Y tree. I estimate using someone's estimate of the mutation rate at
DYS 462 that a typical paternal line will have a mutation in DYS 462 about
once every 50,000 to 60,000 years! But DYS 462 apparently made a big
mutation (a mutation in a sub-clade "founder" or someone close to a such a
founder) right in the middle of the historic evolution of I1a haplogroup. I
recently found that DYS 462 bifurcates I1a with a segment of the key I1a
haplotypes having 12 repeats and the remaining key haplotypes having 13
repeats. Furthermore, the division seems to be consistent with a logical
temporal/historic order that one could reasonably conclude was the path of
development of the relatively young haplogroup I1a since its founding.
>
> I want to study examples of haplotypes from haplogroup "I" and which
include DYS 462. If you have such a haplotype I'd appreciate hearing from
you. I'd like to fill in some geographical details I could not finish
acquiring from mining the Sorenson database because of chronic interface
problems I have been having using their web site.
>
> A reminder of what will tip you off that your haplotype is I1a: If DYS
455 = 8 you are most likely I1a. If YCAIIa,b = 19, 21, that supports I1a,
but you could have the latter but not the former and be in I1c, for example.
>
> Ken
>
>
>
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