GENEALOGY-DNA-L ArchivesArchiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2004-08 > 1093362528
From: "Sharon Bryant" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] R1b - Clusters and Subclades
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 11:48:48 -0400
I have been reading with interest your attempts to place a geographical
location with the R1b Y DNA participants. You keep referring to "Highland
Scots" as you go through the numbers.
Is there a difference in Y DNA between the Highland Scots and the borderers?
I ask because in my project group I have 14 men all of whom have a suggested
R1b. When I look at 390, 391, 392 I see some differences which I offer here
for whatever help they might be.
DYS 390, 391, 392
23 11 13 (1-Ireland)
23 11 14 (1-also Ireland)
24 11 14 (1-also Ireland)
24 11 13 (10-Scotland)
25 11 14 (1-Scotland)
The surname is Glendinning (or any of the variants of the
spellings--originally in historical records Glendonwyn). Glendinning is a
location in Dumfriesshire, Scotland. I have not looked at REOs but would be
willing to do so if it would be of assistance to you.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 11:11 AM
Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] [DNA] R1b - Clusters and Subclades
> I went bleary eyed last night trying to see patterns in R1b (P25) with the
simple premise - there should be clear differences between Scottish Highland
and Norwegian profiles. I compared my R1b Mainland Scottish surname sample
with my R1b Aboriginal Shetland surname sample. It appears that there is as
much variance within groups as between groups. The two were remarkably
similar. I have looked at all 37 markers and keep coming back to a solitary
difference, the same one we flagged months ago when we first looked into the
matter. At that time I collected a database of Eastern European, Danish,
German, Scottish, Irish, and Norse haplotypes. Still no cigar despite
having a much larger high resolution database for Shetland.
> Basically I am just confirming what Ken has discussed recently using the
YHRD. Most R1b are 13 at DYS392. The only two markers I can find which
might hint at a geographical cluster are DYS390 and DYS391. The prototypic
Scottish pattern is 24,10 (also Ireland). As Ken notes, however, there will
be mutations away from this motif so even though an individual may be
Highland Scot, it may not be evident if DYS390 has mutated to 23. The
pattern of 24,10 was not seen in my Eastern European database (24,11 being
strongly modal). In Denmark and Germany 23,11 is modal. In my Shetland
Aboriginal (likely Norse) sample, there is also a strong tendency showing
23,11. These are also the individuals who in the Haplogroup Database of
FTDNA have most of their matches with Germany, Austria, Norway etc. Those
with Mainland Scottish surnames virtually all have 12/12 or close matches
that include Italy, France, Spain and Portugal.
> This is a very sorry state of affairs. Many of the R1b signatures of
those in my Aboriginal Shetland surname group are probably Norse in origin,
however there is no way at this time to differentiate them from those whose
origins are in Scotland. This poses mega problems when I am asked to
interpret this signature since it could reflect a Norse heritage or a non -
paternity event involving a Scottish laird or minister (both notorious in
Shetland for their philandering).
> I am hoping that with a network analysis that some structure will be
visible that is transparent to the naked eye - but my hope is dimming fast.
It appears that our R1b founder put Genghis Khan to shame and filled the
northern tier of Europe with his descendants in a very short time - and too
recent to permit the development of any subclades except the one noted
above. It is sobering to realize that in Norway, far away from the Iberian
refuge during the Last Glacial Maximum, an R1b individual may more closely
match someone from Barcelona than his next door neighbour in Trondheim.
> Dr. David K. Faux
> P.O. Box 192
> Seal Beach, CA 90630
> Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration
> Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more.
|Re: [DNA] R1b - Clusters and Subclades by "Sharon Bryant" <>|