GENEALOGY-DNA-L ArchivesArchiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2004-08 > 1093365420
Subject: Re: [DNA] R1b - Clusters and Subclades
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 16:37:00 +0000
Based on my N=12 sample of Aboriginal Shetland and Orkney surnames (and presumably a Norse Y heritage) who are R1b, it seems very clear that we have a bimodal distribution.
Six individuals have the 24,11 pattern, and three are 23,11. One individual is 24,10, and two are 23,12.
It is likely that the Norse colonies reflect the regions in Norway (and Sweden) from whence the the settlers came, thus it may be necessary for anyone doing such analyses to be much more precise than a broad "Norway" - coning things down to, for example, Northern Norway.
Looking at those in my sample with Scottish surnames (N=19), five are 24,11; five are 24,10; three are 25,10; four are 23,10; and two are 24,12. The appears to be a lot more variation in the land of plaid and bagpipes. Most of the ancestors of these individuals are from Caithness, Sutherland, Fife, and Aberdeen. Since there was also a Norse influence here the picture is complicated. In addition, names like Sinclair and Bruce are Norman, and the haplotypes of my participants may reflect this heritage.
What is very apparent is the relative lack of 24,10 among the Shetland - Norse, and its predominance among the Shetland - Scots; and the lack of 23,11 among the Shetland - Scots, but its solid representation among the Shetland - Norse.
Dr. David K. Faux
P.O. Box 192
Seal Beach, CA 90630
-------------- Original message --------------
> See my R1b charts and map at http://www.worldfamilies.net
> DYS 390, 391 = 23, 11 represents a higher percentage of R1b in Germanic
> continental areas, reaching its peak percentage in NW Europe and
> Netherlands. But Norway and Sweden R1b returned to the 24, 11 dominance of
> Iberia and France. 24, 10 was a harder motif to relate to geography on the
> continent, with the exception that one could see that its percentage did not
> soar like 24, 11 as one went back toward Iberia. The YHRD database is very
> weak in its coverage of British Isles, so I think your observation about 24,
> 10 being common in Scotland is interesting and significant. A couple months
> ago I remember a bunch of people with ancestry in Scotland complaining to me
> that their 24, 10 seemed dominant and why wasn't I picking that up? Ask
> YHRD why they avoid the British Isles?
> I have wondered on a number of occasions why Norway and Sweden more match
> the Franco-Iberian R1b rather than Germanic? One idea is that the Atlantic
> R1b moved up there early and first, before a separate Germany-centered R1b
> spread from its place of origin.
> I am picking up some cluster structure in R1b involving some of the new
> Sorenson database markers not included in YHRD data, but the clustering is
> weak so I can't yet quote the results. But stay tuned.
> ----- Original Message -----
> Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 9:11 AM
> Subject: [DNA] R1b - Clusters and Subclades
> > Ken et al.:
> > I went bleary eyed last night trying to see patterns in R1b (P25) with the
> simple premise - there should be clear differences between Scottish Highland
> and Norwegian profiles.
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