Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2004-09 > 1094714408

From: "Dennis Garvey" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] R1b - or R*?
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 00:20:17 -0700

As I said in my last posting, there are very few Y studies that have
included P25 (the marker that defines R1b). Most studies have just made
assumptions regarding what other markers would flag that group of "R1b" men.

I could only find one study with a large number samples from Europe that
looked for P25 - and that was Hammer's 2001 study:

As part of the study, they typed 327 European men (34 of those 327 were from
Germany). The only distinction they made was Px(Q3, R1ab) vs. R1b - but
that's more information than other studies. The data shown in that paper's Y
haplogroup tree essentially says that there is no large group of men in
Europe that belong to P but don't belong to either R1b or R1a (it's that
wafer-thin light blue slice in the h36 pie).

In light of that, I have no idea how to account for the EDNAP results - or
the NIST results.

Doug's line of reasoning is probably the best: there has just been too much
mixing around of people on the European continent for there to be any
genetic "cut-off" lines such as the data in the paper of Brion et al seemed
to suggest. As he pointed out, the simplest explanation is that two labs
"goofed" something up.

But there are a couple of things that still bug me:

#1) One of the points of the EDNAP paper was to demonstrate that six labs
across Europe were reproducing each other's Y-SNP results with nearly 100%
accuracy. That doesn't seem like the kind of paper in which anybody would
risk "goofing" it up. In fact, some of the people involved in the EDNAP
study had published a paper that reported that P25 actually appears at two
or three places on the Y chromosome. For a negative P25 result you will see
only a "C" signal - so all places must have "C" there. But for a positive
result you will see both a "C" signal and an "A" signal - so only one place
has mutated in the R1b's. They published the paper to warn other labs
against reading a false P25 negative due to the combined "C" and "A" signals
(the kind of "goof" that would be necessary to explain the Muenster and
Innsbruck results). With that in mind, one wouldn't immediately suspect them
of buffoonery in their typing of the marker P25.

#2) Butler and Vallone are of the opinion that more than 10% of American men
belong to P but do not belong either R1a or R1b. Butler works at NIST - the
National Institute of Standards and Technology. One of the points of their
paper was to double check the accuracy of commercial Y-SNP multiplexes
(including P25) from Marlingen Biosciences. Again - one would expect that
they'd go the extra mile to make sure they didn't "goof" it up. (Their paper
also mentions the recently discovered duplication of P25 on the Y

But Hammer's 2001 paper unequivocally says the mystery European P group is
just plain not there. His group discovered the marker P25 - so it doesn't
seem very likely that they could "goof" it up either.

Dennis Garvey
Y-Chromosome Haplogroup Website

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