GENEALOGY-DNA-L ArchivesArchiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2004-09 > 1094737292
From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] R1b - or R*?
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 07:41:32 -0600
I don't understand this assertion that there are no "genetic cut-off lines"
in Europe. I guess it depends on what is meant, but there are some rather
sharp cut-offs of some (not all) haplogroups between Finland and Sweden. It
remains to be fully shown how steep the R1b/R1a transition line is in
Europe, and I believe the I1a/I1b line could be found to be rather sharp.
But from what I've seen of the DYS392, 393 = 13, 13 population in Central
Europe, whatever that represents it is well spread into all of Germany,
Scandinavia, as well as Franco-Iberia and British Isles.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dennis Garvey" <>
Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 1:20 AM
Subject: Re: [DNA] R1b - or R*?
> As I said in my last posting, there are very few Y studies that have
> included P25 (the marker that defines R1b). Most studies have just made
> assumptions regarding what other markers would flag that group of "R1b"
> I could only find one study with a large number samples from Europe that
> looked for P25 - and that was Hammer's 2001 study:
> As part of the study, they typed 327 European men (34 of those 327 were
> Germany). The only distinction they made was Px(Q3, R1ab) vs. R1b - but
> that's more information than other studies. The data shown in that paper's
> haplogroup tree essentially says that there is no large group of men in
> Europe that belong to P but don't belong to either R1b or R1a (it's that
> wafer-thin light blue slice in the h36 pie).
> In light of that, I have no idea how to account for the EDNAP results - or
> the NIST results.
> Doug's line of reasoning is probably the best: there has just been too
> mixing around of people on the European continent for there to be any
> genetic "cut-off" lines such as the data in the paper of Brion et al
> to suggest. As he pointed out, the simplest explanation is that two labs
> "goofed" something up.
> But there are a couple of things that still bug me:
> #1) One of the points of the EDNAP paper was to demonstrate that six labs
> across Europe were reproducing each other's Y-SNP results with nearly 100%
> accuracy. That doesn't seem like the kind of paper in which anybody would
> risk "goofing" it up. In fact, some of the people involved in the EDNAP
> study had published a paper that reported that P25 actually appears at two
> or three places on the Y chromosome. For a negative P25 result you will
> only a "C" signal - so all places must have "C" there. But for a positive
> result you will see both a "C" signal and an "A" signal - so only one
> has mutated in the R1b's. They published the paper to warn other labs
> against reading a false P25 negative due to the combined "C" and "A"
> (the kind of "goof" that would be necessary to explain the Muenster and
> Innsbruck results). With that in mind, one wouldn't immediately suspect
> of buffoonery in their typing of the marker P25.
> #2) Butler and Vallone are of the opinion that more than 10% of American
> belong to P but do not belong either R1a or R1b. Butler works at NIST -
> National Institute of Standards and Technology. One of the points of their
> paper was to double check the accuracy of commercial Y-SNP multiplexes
> (including P25) from Marlingen Biosciences. Again - one would expect that
> they'd go the extra mile to make sure they didn't "goof" it up. (Their
> also mentions the recently discovered duplication of P25 on the Y
> But Hammer's 2001 paper unequivocally says the mystery European P group is
> just plain not there. His group discovered the marker P25 - so it doesn't
> seem very likely that they could "goof" it up either.
> Dennis Garvey
> Y-Chromosome Haplogroup Website
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