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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2004-09 > 1094746180


From: "gordon hutton" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] R1b - or R*?
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 17:09:47 +0100
References: <BAY8-F20LqPg33I6NNS00009c47@hotmail.com> <002501c49674$b35855a0$4ae289d1@Ken1>


Ken
A ?
What is the real difference between 390,at 24 and 25 if they both have 10
391
Gordon
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
To: <>
Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 2:41 PM
Subject: Re: [DNA] R1b - or R*?


> I don't understand this assertion that there are no "genetic cut-off
lines"
> in Europe. I guess it depends on what is meant, but there are some rather
> sharp cut-offs of some (not all) haplogroups between Finland and Sweden.
It
> remains to be fully shown how steep the R1b/R1a transition line is in
> Europe, and I believe the I1a/I1b line could be found to be rather sharp.
>
> But from what I've seen of the DYS392, 393 = 13, 13 population in Central
> Europe, whatever that represents it is well spread into all of Germany,
> Scandinavia, as well as Franco-Iberia and British Isles.
>
> Ken
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dennis Garvey" <>
> To: <>
> Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 1:20 AM
> Subject: Re: [DNA] R1b - or R*?
>
>
> > As I said in my last posting, there are very few Y studies that have
> > included P25 (the marker that defines R1b). Most studies have just made
> > assumptions regarding what other markers would flag that group of "R1b"
> men.
> >
> > I could only find one study with a large number samples from Europe that
> > looked for P25 - and that was Hammer's 2001 study:
> >
> > http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/Hammer_MBE_2001.pdf
> >
> > As part of the study, they typed 327 European men (34 of those 327 were
> from
> > Germany). The only distinction they made was Px(Q3, R1ab) vs. R1b - but
> > that's more information than other studies. The data shown in that
paper's
> Y
> > haplogroup tree essentially says that there is no large group of men in
> > Europe that belong to P but don't belong to either R1b or R1a (it's that
> > wafer-thin light blue slice in the h36 pie).
> >
> > In light of that, I have no idea how to account for the EDNAP results -
or
> > the NIST results.
> >
> > Doug's line of reasoning is probably the best: there has just been too
> much
> > mixing around of people on the European continent for there to be any
> > genetic "cut-off" lines such as the data in the paper of Brion et al
> seemed
> > to suggest. As he pointed out, the simplest explanation is that two labs
> > "goofed" something up.
> >
> > But there are a couple of things that still bug me:
> >
> > #1) One of the points of the EDNAP paper was to demonstrate that six
labs
> > across Europe were reproducing each other's Y-SNP results with nearly
100%
> > accuracy. That doesn't seem like the kind of paper in which anybody
would
> > risk "goofing" it up. In fact, some of the people involved in the EDNAP
> > study had published a paper that reported that P25 actually appears at
two
> > or three places on the Y chromosome. For a negative P25 result you will
> see
> > only a "C" signal - so all places must have "C" there. But for a
positive
> > result you will see both a "C" signal and an "A" signal - so only one
> place
> > has mutated in the R1b's. They published the paper to warn other labs
> > against reading a false P25 negative due to the combined "C" and "A"
> signals
> > (the kind of "goof" that would be necessary to explain the Muenster and
> > Innsbruck results). With that in mind, one wouldn't immediately suspect
> them
> > of buffoonery in their typing of the marker P25.
> >
> > #2) Butler and Vallone are of the opinion that more than 10% of American
> men
> > belong to P but do not belong either R1a or R1b. Butler works at NIST -
> the
> > National Institute of Standards and Technology. One of the points of
their
> > paper was to double check the accuracy of commercial Y-SNP multiplexes
> > (including P25) from Marlingen Biosciences. Again - one would expect
that
> > they'd go the extra mile to make sure they didn't "goof" it up. (Their
> paper
> > also mentions the recently discovered duplication of P25 on the Y
> > chromosome).
> >
> > But Hammer's 2001 paper unequivocally says the mystery European P group
is
> > just plain not there. His group discovered the marker P25 - so it
doesn't
> > seem very likely that they could "goof" it up either.
> >
> > Dennis Garvey
> > ___________________________________________________________
> > Y-Chromosome Haplogroup Website
> >
> > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~dgarvey/DNA/markers.htm
> > ___________________________________________________________
> >
> >
> >
> > ==============================
> > Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration
> > Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more.
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> >
> >
>
>
>
> ==============================
> Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration
> Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more.
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