Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2004-09 > 1094774902

From: "Whit Athey" <>
Subject: RE: [DNA] R1b - or R*?
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 20:08:22 -0400
In-Reply-To: <>

David, I agree completely. While the Al-Zehery article (Iraq), the
Cinnioglu paper (Anatolia), and the Kivisild paper (India) are not exactly
heartland Europe, I find it hard to believe that the results on R1b in these
studies could be that far off from reflecting the situation in neighboring
European countries to their north and west. In both the Cinnioglu and
Kivisild studies, P25 was tested, along with other markers within R, and
while there were a few individuals found in R1*, R2, and R1c, there were
many times that number of regular R1b-P25's, R1b3-M269, and R1a1-M17. They
even checked for, and found several R1b2-M73 and R1b4-M335, but the R1b3's
were most prevalent by far. I also believe that there is something very
wrong with the EDNAP results, but share Dennis's puzzlement as to how they
could have gone wrong.


-----Original Message-----
From: [mailto:]
Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 4:54 PM
Subject: RE: [DNA] R1b - or R*?

Whit, Dennis, Doug, Ken et al.: I have absolutely no confidence in the work
done by Biron et al. in Forensic Science International.

It is an absurd proposition, and contrary to the weight of available
evidence, that R1b disappears in Germany. In my opinion there has been a
major major error introduced into the mix. R1b decreases in a cline from
Connaught, Ireland (almost100%) to Russia and points east where it falls to
below 10%. However, nowhere in its range does it disappear.

The recent article by Al-Zehery et al. (2003) is a model for how studies of
this nature (mtDNA plus Y-DNA) should be conducted. In his sample from Iraq
(at the far eastern range of R1b), he found 6.5% R1a and 10.8% R1b and thats
it for R of any ilk. They note in their methdology that they typed for
DYS257 and M74 and inferred M45 (P,Q,R supergroup designator). They then
typed M17 to catch their R1a, and instead of inferring that the rest would
be R1b, they typed for M269 (thus R1b3 - universal in European R1b such as
Irish). They inferred P25, but this is logical since they typed for the
deeper level of R1b3. The authors further typed for 49a,f Taq haplotypes
for a finer subdivision.

The Muenster and Innsbruck zero R1b is simply not possible unless, for
example, the population was only Ashkenazi Jews, who may have higher R1*
than their non - Jewish neighbors - but I am grasping at straws here.

I wish they would answer their mail to help clear this up - perhaps proving
me wrong and opening up new avenues for research.


-------------- Original message --------------

> Some of the information posted on this thread is quite puzzling. I'm not
> sure that we have the whole story yet.

This thread: