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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2004-09 > 1095187457


From: ellen Levy <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] The Irish are not celts, say experts (fwd)
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 11:44:35 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <20040914153522.10041.qmail@web52104.mail.yahoo.com>


Sorry, guys, about all the typos here. I was typing
this out quite quickly this morning. I cringe when I
re-read my email typos. Please excuse the mistakes.

Ellen

--- ellen Levy <> wrote:

> Bryan:
>
> To a certain extent, I agree with you, but abhorr
> the
> vast generalizations regarding appearance that seem
> so
> prevelant with some on the List. Attributing the
> darker appearance of some Welsh to the Spanish
> Armada
> seems baseless and farfetched to me. I think the
> "darker" Welsh are as "Celtic" as the red-haired
> Welsh. What I do agree with is that there has been
> migrations both in and out of the British Isles, and
> in fact, there has been continuous gene flow between
> Ireland and Britain (this is well support by the
> archaeological record both in prehistory and
> historical times).
>
> Someone who is more historically educated on this
> event can correct me here, but I believe the Spanish
> ships would have left little dent (genetically
> speaking) on the much, much larger population of
> Wales.
>
> But more importantly, just because there is a
> physical
> similarity between some of the Celtic peoples and
> those in Spain doesn't necessarily point to any
> recent
> or significant gene flow between these populations.
> And in fact, this is exactly what the recent DNA
> studies of the Irish/Celtic populations indicates -
> that there is genetic affinity between many (though
> my
> guess is not all) the Celtic nations, both between
> themselves and those of the Atlantic mainland.
>
> Additionally, this connection is strongly supported
> by
> the archaeological record going back about 4000-3000
> BC, which I would be happy to post about should
> Listers have an interest. This time-frame fits
> perfectly with the arrival of agriculture to the
> British Isles as well.
>
> Now, these facts don't necessarily answer many of
> the
> questions I have regarding other Celtic "issues."
> Most importantly, it doesn't explain how the Celtic
> language made it's way to the British Isles (and
> Spain, as Celt-Iberian). This really must be
> addressed, but I'm not convinced that there wasn't
> at
> least a small migration from the mainland (probably
> of
> some elite groups of men) who brought this
> Indo-European language to the fringes of Europe.
> Language replacement is a very complex thing, and is
> often precipitated either by large-medium scale
> invasions or dominance of a small elite group of
> warriors who generally possess some superior
> knowledge
> (in this case, could be agriculture, or possibly
> knowledge about domestication of the horse). An
> example of a small scale invasion that brought
> significant linguistic change is Anatolia and the
> invasions of the Turkic tribes. I am most
> definitely
> interested in others thoughts on this.
>
> I must also point out the weaknesses in the recent
> MtDNA study on Celtic populations. This study, in
> my
> humble opinion, did nothing but support the already
> well-accepted view that there is homogeneity in the
> makeup of European MtDNA's. There is nothing in
> this
> study that indicates any unique Celtic/Atlantic
> MtDNA's and, in fact, there is a woefully lack of
> any
> results provided in this study to help me determine
> the makeup of Irish/Celtic MtDNA's. Amazingly, the
> authors of this study themselves admit that their
> evidence is weak regarding Celtic MtDNA's.
>
> On the other hand, the Y chromosome evidence may
> present a different story, yet I am also concerned
> about vast over-generalizations occuring in these
> studies. I'd really like to see a study that
> examines in-depth the populations found in different
> areas of Ireland (as well as specific studies for
> Scotland, Wales, etc). This would clearly be
> extremely helpful.
>
> And one more question: Which populations today on
> the
> mainland of Europe best reflect the ancient Celtics?
>
> Because if you are going to make the argument that
> there was no migrations at all by Celtic mainland
> speakers, then you have to have an idea which
> European
> groups best represent the Celtics for comparison to
> populations in the British Isles.
>
> Ellen Coffman
>
>
>
> --- Bryan's Junk Mail
> <>
> wrote:
>
> > Let me add a little salt to this discussion.....
> > Ireland, like most of Britain, has been subjected
> to
> > many
> > "invasions"....friendly, and otherwise !
> > We inhabitants of the British Isles are mixture of
> > many genetic influences,
> > being on the edge of Europe, and Scandinavia
> > All the Tribes from these areas found Briton easy
> to
> > access...and to add to
> > the mixture, the Romans brought Legionnaires from
> > all over their
> > Empire...from the Middle East, and North Africa
> > too....many of whom NEVER
> > ever got back home after completing their service
> > here. So they stayed and
> > interbred with the local population.Celtic Tribes
> > were all part of that
> > early influx and flow of population.....AND AS
> OTHER
> > tribes CAME along they
> > were pushed further West and North in Britain.
> > The northern Iberian Tribe of Gaels....yes Bret,
> > that is part of Spain , AND
> > includes the Pyrenees, where the Basques live
> > today......well they invaded
> > Southern coasts of Britain....Wales, including
> > Anglesey, and Ireland....THEY
> > drove out the Celtic Scotia who lived in Ireland,
> > who escaped to the
> > Lowlands of Scotland.....Later TO RETURN under the
> > James I AND then
> > Cromwell...to colonise Ulster
> > The Celts were Red haired..fair skinned...whilst
> the
> > Gaels were Dark haired
> > and Olive skinned.........YOU can still see that
> > genetic influence today
> > Then of course we must not forget those poor
> > unfortunate Iberian Farmers
> > press ganged into the Spanish Armada of
> > 1588......many of whom were
> > shipwrecked on the Western coasts of Scotland,
> > Ireland and Wales...again
> > including Anglesey.......Indeed Anglesey almost
> > develops as a separated
> > Community....
> > IT WAS there that the Druids...a Celtic people,
> fled
> > and last held out
> > against the Romans invaders, who were frightened
> of
> > their "magic" !
> > Anglesey also saw many Iberians from the Spanish
> > Armada, who were wrecked on
> > it's coast, settle down there......Indeed amongst
> > the Welsh of North Wales,
> > it has long been known that "the Welsh on Anglesey
> > are a totally different
> > lot".........they tend to be olive skinned, and
> dark
> > haired...as opposed to
> > the traditional Celtic Welsh colouring of red hair
> > and freckled skins...THEY
> > ALSO have a reputation of being hot tempered and a
> > bit fiery..Latin
> > temperament!...and have long
> > been know as "Iberian Celts" by the Welsh on the
> > mainland of North Wales
> >
> > > Hope this Salt has not been too tangy or spicy
> for
> > your palates !!
> >
> > Bryan
> >
> >
> > ==============================
> > Gain access to over two billion names including
> the
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> >
>
http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237
> >
> >
>
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