GENEALOGY-DNA-L Archives

Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2004-10 > 1098048081


From: Janell J <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Tracing Amerindian mtDNA
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 14:21:56 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20041016195419.00a3dec0@shawmail>


Gisele,

"Our analysis of the indigenous haplogroup R lineages in India points
to a common first spread of the root haplotypes of M, N, and R along the
southern route some 60-70 kya ..."

M, N, and R? It was my understanding that M took the southern route and N the northern route, and R is merely a subgroup of N. (Kivisild, 1999).

"Haplogroup B is present, in varying frequencies, in most Asian locations
except Siberian. It is found in its highest frequencies in Oceania and SE
Asia. "

Exactly. The highest frequencies are found along the far eastern edge of China in the neighboring islands of Taiwan (33.6%) and the Phillipines (40%) - from which they no doubt settled Indonesia, New Guinea, Polynesia, Micronesia, etc. In the southwestern lands, the frequencies are high in the nation just south of China, Vietnam (32.2%), but much lower in Thailand (14.6%) and virtually absent in India (0%).

"In China, the highest frequencies of B have indeed been reported in the SE & E provinces and the lowest frequencies in the NW corner but I don't see how this is supportive of a land route through Tibet and Mongolia."

Not through Mongolia, but through Tibet. I believe the evidence supports a route out of India through Tibet and from there into China - not out of India through Bangladesh and from there into Thailand. Though they could just as easily have taken either or both routes, I am most in support of the theory that the ancestors of haplogroup B crossed Central Asia eastward directly into the Phillipines (with some movement south and some movement north of this direct path). Moreover, it seems more likely to me that they made their way to Mongolia, Korea, Japan, and Siberia (where it is present in small frequencies) directly and by this same central route across China, rather than by island-hoping along the southern coast.

And look at the Americas. Haplogroup B Amerindians such as the Aymaras or the Pueblo are practically identical to the Chinese, and hardly resemble the modern populations of the Pacific Islands at all.

" I would associate Tibetans with New World haplogroup A and/or D instead and
trace haplogroup B to the New World via a coastal route. "

Well, I only consider Tibet a crossroad - a region through which certain branches of macro-haplogroup N traveled as they made their way into China. From China, they populated the islands to various degrees before populating the Americas as well.

Gisele Horvat <> wrote:
Jan,

>I could be wrong, but it seems like there are only two options: Either the
>ancestors of haplogroup B took a southern route by boat out of Africa to
>the Islands and then traveled from there northward into SE China and from
>there up to Tibet and Mongolia. Or, they took a nothern route by land into
>Tibet and Mongolia and then traveled from there southward into SE China
>and from there down to the Islands.

Palanichamy et al. recently wrote something relevant to this issue:

"Although this key feature of the Out of-Africa scenario is widely
accepted, the specific question of the routes used by modern humans to
leave Africa is still being disputed. The traditional view, born out of the
analysis of classic markers and the interpretation of population trees, is
that there were two distinct exit routes a southern route along the Asian
coastline and a northern route through the Levant via Central Asia.
... Our analysis of the indigenous haplogroup R lineages in India points
to a common first spread of the root haplotypes of M, N, and R along the
southern route some 60-70 kya ..."

>As for the "southern distribution", it is limited to the SE China region
>and the Islands, is it not? I know that it is virtually absent in India.
>But, it is found in Tibet, Mongolia, Korea, and Japan. If accurate, this
>would seem to support the northern route.

Haplogroup B is present, in varying frequencies, in most Asian locations
except Siberian. It is found in its highest frequencies in Oceania and SE
Asia. 40% of Filipino sequences are B, 32.2% of the Vietnamese, 20.4% of
the Indonesian, 42% of Coastal New Guinean, 94% of Polynesian, 71.2% of
Micronesian, 33.6% of Taiwanese aboriginal, 15.4% of Malaysian, 14.6% of
the Thai, 18% of the Sabah, etc. In contrast, the frequencies of
haplogroup B sequences in Tibet, Mongolia, Japan and Korea run between 5
and 15%.

>Furthermore, the overwhelming majority of carriers of haplogroup B are
>Mongoloid. Melanesians and Australoids are not. This also conflicts with
>the southern origin theory.

Besides coastal New Guineans, most other Melanesians also have high
frequencies of B sequences. Much of the data is just still unpublished.

I would associate Tibetans with New World haplogroup A and/or D instead and
trace haplogroup B to the New World via a coastal route.

In China, the highest frequencies of B have indeed been reported in the SE
& E provinces and the lowest frequencies in the NW corner but I don't see
how this is supportive of a land route through Tibet and Mongolia.

Gisele



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