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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2004-12 > 1103738928


From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] R1a1 - M17 as an Ancestral (circa 9000 YBP) North American Lineage
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 11:08:55 -0700
References: <122220041750.4773.41C9B3F30005D4C1000012A52200763704050B989A0E00@comcast.net>


David, It isn't clear why these authors said R1a came to western hemisphere
with the Na-Dene if they quote no R1a haplotypes among the Navajo or
Chipewayans? Are the central American people quoted supposed to also be
Na-Dene? Or are they making a statement that R1a exists among people in
Siberia who are of the stock which spun off the Na-Dene, and then they
theorize or state without evidence that therefore R1a was brought to
Americas with the Na-Dene?

Is the only firm evidence the central Americans?
----- Original Message -----
From: <>
To: <>
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2004 10:50 AM
Subject: [DNA] R1a1 - M17 as an Ancestral (circa 9000 YBP) North American
Lineage


> List:
>
> I have just finsihed reading Lell's article on "The Dual Origins and
Siberian Affinities of Native American Y Chromosomes" - see:
> http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/AJHG_2002_v70_p192-206.pdf
> and it was a real eye opener to an afficianado of R1a.
>
> The upshot of the article is that R1a1 - M17 was among a group of Asians
from Eastern Siberia (with origins in Middle Siberia) who along with
Haplogroup C (RPS4Y) and other P - M45 (Q) groups advanced to North America
to form the second wave of settlement circa 7000 - 9500 YBP to form that
Na - Dene peoples (e.g., Chipewayans of Northewestern Canada and the Navajo
of the Southwestern USA).
>
> What is most interesting is that within the second wave there were
apparently groups of R1a1 - M17 from Eastern Siberia - where the haplogroup
is still seen today in the Chukchi and more extensively in the Itel'men.
>
> The only Native American tribal group that to the present has been
observed with R1a1 - M17 chromosomes apparently is among the Guaymi of Costa
Rica. The authors of this paper do not dwell at all on this finding (it is
odd that none of the surrounding samples had even a single M17), and it is
tempting to dismiss the results as an anomaly, likely reflecting a Norse
mariner in the area at some unknown time in the past. However there is no
documentation for this; and, more importantly, there is an extreme degree of
diversity in the haplotypes.
>
> Unfortunately the authors only measured 4 YSTRs, and two and likely three
of these are reported in a fashion that requires conversion to match the
nomenclature familiar to us today. It appears that to DYS19 we need to add
3; and to DYS390 we need to add 13. There are 7 of the 21 Guaymi who are
M17 and despite the extreme diversity even with only 4 markers, the modal
haplotype is:
>
> DYS19 = 16 ( range 14 to 17 )
> DYS388 = 11 ( a single 9 )
> DYS390 = 25 ( range 23 to 26 )
> DYS391 = 11 ( 3 of the 7 were 10 )
>
> Across the R1a world DYS388 = 12 is modal, and I an unclear whether there
is a nomenclature difference here too since the same situation holds for the
Q samples.
>
> If M17 was in Eastern Siberia on the Pacific Coast 10,000 years ago it
does call into question the assumptions about M17 haven arised among the
Kurgan people of the Ukraine and spread along with the Indo - European
language and the horse to the East. It appears more likely that the true
homeland is Northern India or Pakistan where the haplotype diversity is
considerably higher than the Ukraine.
>
> Thus now in addition to Q and Q3 as well as C, we must now consider R1a to
be a Native American haplogroup and consider the possiblity that some
unknown number of those R1a individuals whose ancestors "disappear" into
North America with no documented European or Asian roots may carry a Native
American Y chromosome.
>
> Any comments or critique would be welcome.
>
> David F.
>
>
> ==============================
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>
>


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