GENEALOGY-DNA-L Archives

Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2004-12 > 1103743413


From: "Billy Sinor" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] R1a1 - M17 as an Ancestral (circa 9000 YBP) North American Lineage
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 13:23:33 -0600
References: <122220041750.4773.41C9B3F30005D4C1000012A52200763704050B989A0E00@comcast.net> <001a01c4e851$4d5026f0$6f519045@Ken1>


I would like to say, you cannot tell an Indian by the color of his skin
remember the group that came from the caucus the X haplogroup and the
Cherokees many of them are white skinned and have cau features Long before
the Europeans got to the new world there were Blond headed and Blue eyes
running all over the Southern Us Where did these people come from The
western Indians had the Hollywood look lets think this over
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
To: <>
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2004 12:08 PM
Subject: Re: [DNA] R1a1 - M17 as an Ancestral (circa 9000 YBP) North
American Lineage


> David, It isn't clear why these authors said R1a came to western
> hemisphere
> with the Na-Dene if they quote no R1a haplotypes among the Navajo or
> Chipewayans? Are the central American people quoted supposed to also be
> Na-Dene? Or are they making a statement that R1a exists among people in
> Siberia who are of the stock which spun off the Na-Dene, and then they
> theorize or state without evidence that therefore R1a was brought to
> Americas with the Na-Dene?
>
> Is the only firm evidence the central Americans?
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <>
> To: <>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2004 10:50 AM
> Subject: [DNA] R1a1 - M17 as an Ancestral (circa 9000 YBP) North American
> Lineage
>
>
>> List:
>>
>> I have just finsihed reading Lell's article on "The Dual Origins and
> Siberian Affinities of Native American Y Chromosomes" - see:
>> http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/AJHG_2002_v70_p192-206.pdf
>> and it was a real eye opener to an afficianado of R1a.
>>
>> The upshot of the article is that R1a1 - M17 was among a group of Asians
> from Eastern Siberia (with origins in Middle Siberia) who along with
> Haplogroup C (RPS4Y) and other P - M45 (Q) groups advanced to North
> America
> to form the second wave of settlement circa 7000 - 9500 YBP to form that
> Na - Dene peoples (e.g., Chipewayans of Northewestern Canada and the
> Navajo
> of the Southwestern USA).
>>
>> What is most interesting is that within the second wave there were
> apparently groups of R1a1 - M17 from Eastern Siberia - where the
> haplogroup
> is still seen today in the Chukchi and more extensively in the Itel'men.
>>
>> The only Native American tribal group that to the present has been
> observed with R1a1 - M17 chromosomes apparently is among the Guaymi of
> Costa
> Rica. The authors of this paper do not dwell at all on this finding (it
> is
> odd that none of the surrounding samples had even a single M17), and it is
> tempting to dismiss the results as an anomaly, likely reflecting a Norse
> mariner in the area at some unknown time in the past. However there is no
> documentation for this; and, more importantly, there is an extreme degree
> of
> diversity in the haplotypes.
>>
>> Unfortunately the authors only measured 4 YSTRs, and two and likely three
> of these are reported in a fashion that requires conversion to match the
> nomenclature familiar to us today. It appears that to DYS19 we need to
> add
> 3; and to DYS390 we need to add 13. There are 7 of the 21 Guaymi who are
> M17 and despite the extreme diversity even with only 4 markers, the modal
> haplotype is:
>>
>> DYS19 = 16 ( range 14 to 17 )
>> DYS388 = 11 ( a single 9 )
>> DYS390 = 25 ( range 23 to 26 )
>> DYS391 = 11 ( 3 of the 7 were 10 )
>>
>> Across the R1a world DYS388 = 12 is modal, and I an unclear whether there
> is a nomenclature difference here too since the same situation holds for
> the
> Q samples.
>>
>> If M17 was in Eastern Siberia on the Pacific Coast 10,000 years ago it
> does call into question the assumptions about M17 haven arised among the
> Kurgan people of the Ukraine and spread along with the Indo - European
> language and the horse to the East. It appears more likely that the true
> homeland is Northern India or Pakistan where the haplotype diversity is
> considerably higher than the Ukraine.
>>
>> Thus now in addition to Q and Q3 as well as C, we must now consider R1a
>> to
> be a Native American haplogroup and consider the possiblity that some
> unknown number of those R1a individuals whose ancestors "disappear" into
> North America with no documented European or Asian roots may carry a
> Native
> American Y chromosome.
>>
>> Any comments or critique would be welcome.
>>
>> David F.
>>
>>
>> ==============================
>> Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the
>> last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more:
> http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx
>>
>>
>
>
>
> ==============================
> Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the
> areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months.
> Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx
>

This thread: