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From: "Mark MacDonald" <>
Subject: RE: [DNA] R1a1 - M17 as an Ancestral (circa 9000 YBP) North American Lineage
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 13:53:16 -0600
In-Reply-To: <122220041750.4773.41C9B3F30005D4C1000012A52200763704050B989A0E00@comcast.net>


David
How did you infer the conversion factors in the article? Would the
Somerled signature which you believe came through Norway from the Altai
be 12 12 12 11 on conversion to their counting and order? It is 13 25 15
11 11 14 12 12 in FTDNA. If so, that branch does not appear among the
Indians of the Americas,correct?

When you have suggested that the Somerled line came through the Altai
before it turned west toward Sweden, then Norway, then Scotland, do you
believe the origin of that path was closer to the Tofolars, the Tuvans,
the Buryats,or the Yenisey Evenks on the article's fig 1. Is that lake,
which those peoples surround, Lake Baikal? Is the area now the Tuva
Republic with Kizil as its capital? My sense of Siberian geography is
almost non existent.
Thanks for your assistance.

Mark MacDonald

-----Original Message-----
From: [mailto:]
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2004 11:51 AM
To:
Subject: [DNA] R1a1 - M17 as an Ancestral (circa 9000 YBP) North
American Lineage

List:

I have just finsihed reading Lell's article on "The Dual Origins and
Siberian Affinities of Native American Y Chromosomes" - see:
http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/AJHG_2002_v70_p192-206.pdf
and it was a real eye opener to an afficianado of R1a.

The upshot of the article is that R1a1 - M17 was among a group of Asians
from Eastern Siberia (with origins in Middle Siberia) who along with
Haplogroup C (RPS4Y) and other P - M45 (Q) groups advanced to North
America to form the second wave of settlement circa 7000 - 9500 YBP to
form that Na - Dene peoples (e.g., Chipewayans of Northewestern Canada
and the Navajo of the Southwestern USA).

What is most interesting is that within the second wave there were
apparently groups of R1a1 - M17 from Eastern Siberia - where the
haplogroup is still seen today in the Chukchi and more extensively in
the Itel'men.

The only Native American tribal group that to the present has been
observed with R1a1 - M17 chromosomes apparently is among the Guaymi of
Costa Rica. The authors of this paper do not dwell at all on this
finding (it is odd that none of the surrounding samples had even a
single M17), and it is tempting to dismiss the results as an anomaly,
likely reflecting a Norse mariner in the area at some unknown time in
the past. However there is no documentation for this; and, more
importantly, there is an extreme degree of diversity in the haplotypes.

Unfortunately the authors only measured 4 YSTRs, and two and likely
three of these are reported in a fashion that requires conversion to
match the nomenclature familiar to us today. It appears that to DYS19
we need to add 3; and to DYS390 we need to add 13. There are 7 of the
21 Guaymi who are M17 and despite the extreme diversity even with only
4 markers, the modal haplotype is:

DYS19 = 16 ( range 14 to 17 )
DYS388 = 11 ( a single 9 )
DYS390 = 25 ( range 23 to 26 )
DYS391 = 11 ( 3 of the 7 were 10 )

Across the R1a world DYS388 = 12 is modal, and I an unclear whether
there is a nomenclature difference here too since the same situation
holds for the Q samples.

If M17 was in Eastern Siberia on the Pacific Coast 10,000 years ago it
does call into question the assumptions about M17 haven arised among the
Kurgan people of the Ukraine and spread along with the Indo - European
language and the horse to the East. It appears more likely that the
true homeland is Northern India or Pakistan where the haplotype
diversity is considerably higher than the Ukraine.

Thus now in addition to Q and Q3 as well as C, we must now consider R1a
to be a Native American haplogroup and consider the possiblity that some
unknown number of those R1a individuals whose ancestors "disappear" into
North America with no documented European or Asian roots may carry a
Native American Y chromosome.

Any comments or critique would be welcome.

David F.


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