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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2004-12 > 1104283656


From: "David Wilson" <>
Subject: RE: [DNA] 385a,b Upheaval in R1b (WAS: Can 385a,b = 14,15 be 15/14?)
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 17:27:36 -0800
In-Reply-To: <41D1F471.6000603@scs.uiuc.edu>


I agree with Ken's earlier post that this 385a,b distinction has a definite
"wow" factor. I thank Ann for calling the Kittler paper to our attention.

I read the Kittler paper, and leaving out the part about testing and
dismissing hypotheses that didn't go anywhere, it boils down to this:

In R1a (the old Hg 3), modal values for 385a,b are 11,14.
In R1b (the old Hg 1), modal values for 385a,b are 14,11.

The haplogroup labels could probably be reversed if used consistently. I'm
just following Kittler's lead since he's the guy who made the finding. I am
already comfortable thinking the sequence "14,11" or (with obvious
exceptions for identical pairs) "big, little" for 385a,b in R1b haplotypes.

This difference is huge both statistically and metaphorically. It makes a
more obvious distinction between R1a and R1b than we have previously been
able to see at a glance.

Unfortunately, I think this is going to be an unusable extension of
knowledge for the thousands of people whose values at 385a,b were determined
without the benefit of the isolating primers that Kittler and his colleagues
developed. We may be able to look at boatloads of R1b haplotypes in the
literature and guess that values like 11,14 or 11,13 (to be parochial for a
moment) are really 14,11 and 13,11 -- but without the refined analysis we
will never know. Is the Arizona lab going to adopt these new primers and
redo thousands of samples? I can't believe that's in the cards, though I and
others like me might be willing to spend $10 or $20 more just to have the
question resolved in particular cases. But if not everyone wants the
refinement (or even hears that it is available), how would one present the
new data alongside unamended data in, say, a Ysearch table? What is the
implication for other haplotypes like the various subclades of I that Ken
has been so determined and productive in sorting out?

Very interesting development. In my own mind, the R1b 385a,b columns in my
Wilson Surname Project table are going to flash yellow or orange when I look
at them. I am going to have to decide if I want to put some kind of explicit
comment on the web page as well. I don't want to confuse project members who
may already be uneasy about DNA data in general, but I sure don't want to
leave an interesting and potentially relevant piece of the picture
undisclosed.

Does this trigger new thoughts for anyone about when R1a and R1b may each
have separated from the larger R haplogroup?

Is it possible that other polymorphic loci like YCAii and CDY are also
subject to ordering reversal? I think we all know that the 464 variants are
presented in arithmetic order, not distinguished by position. I wonder if it
might ever be possible to isolate each variant in its own locus.

I almost titled this post "The R1b/385 Catastrophe" since catastrophe in
Greek means "overturning." But a deep breath and a moment's reflection led
me away from temptation.

David Wilson



-----Original Message-----
From: Doug McDonald [mailto:]
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 4:04 PM
To:
Subject: Re: [DNA] Can 385a,b = 14,15 be 15/14?

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