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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2004-12 > 1104297986


From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Can 385a,b = 14,15 be 15/14?
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 22:26:26 -0700
References: <122920040455.2497.41D238AA0001ABA9000009C12200734748050B989A0E00@comcast.net>


Ah, eastern Germany. I suspect R1a is rather decent in that region and
rather sparce in western Germany, with the all-Germany average a bit
misleading for both extremes --- in other words a decent gradient from west
to east in Germany. While I1a does not change that much from east to west,
the R1a increases at the expense of decreasing R1b.

I did not know people think the R1b/R1a split was so recent? I thought it
was pre-LGM and still considered a 6 step change from the first modal value,
presumably R1b's, hard to explain even with that longer time interval.
Using McDonald's original mutation rates of 1/300 for 385a and same for
385b, the characteristic time to get 3 steps of mutation is 900 generations
which is about 25,000 years if they all went in same direction.
Characteristic time is somewhat longer when accounting for all back and
forth possibilities.

Anyway; the effect on this doubling of the number of objectively separate
underlying populations within the overall I1a distribution is great. The
phylogenetic tree must be redesigned.


----- Original Message -----
From: <>
To: <>
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 9:55 PM
Subject: Re: [DNA] Can 385a,b = 14,15 be 15/14?


> This article is very unusual in a number of ways. First they set out to
show how the locus (loci) DYS385a,b was involved in a hypothetical inta -
chromosomal recombination since they found that their German sample had an
almost exact 50/50 split between 14,11 and 11,14 repeat motifs. Well, when
they did SNP testing they found out that this hypothesis could be entirely
explained by the apparent fact that the sample was split between what we
would term R1b and R1a. They found without exception, and they tested
individuals in other countries such as Spain and Poland for confirmation,
that R1b is 14,11 and R1a is 11,14. It seems odd that this split should be
so dramatic since R1a suposedly emerged from R1b about 3000 years ago
(although there are widely differing opinions on this matter).
>
> Unfortunately I cannot see any data that relates to haplogroup I since it
was lumped into an "other" category. I do find it strange that their German
sample was 30% R1a, which, other than R1b at 36%, outdistanced all other
haplogroups combined - where is the haplogroup I here? The German samples
were from Berlin and Leipzig.
>
> David F.
>
>
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
>
> > Ken et al,
> >
> > I am not sure that I understand this. These questions may seem dumb, but
> > hopefully someone can explain this to me in a simple way that I can
absorb
> >
> > Are you saying that the 385a and 385b markers are actually
interchangable on
> > the tests that commercial labs have been using? If one was 10 and the
other
> > 15, there would be no distinction between which was A and which was B,
other
> > than which way the lab happened to label it on your test results? 10/15
> > results could be potentially be the same as a 15/10 results?
> >
> > Sorry for riding the short bus on this one. I really should have asked
those
> > questions in crayon, but I am really confused at the moment. Hopefully
> > someone can explain this to me slowly. I thought the A and B
designations
> > were firmly placed.
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ken Nordtvedt"
> > To:
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 6:40 PM
> > Subject: [DNA] Can 385a,b = 14,15 be 15/14?
> >
> >
> > >I read the abstract of the Eur J Hum Gen paper Ann mentioned and got
> > >nothing much from the abstract by itself. But let me describe the
> > >importance of this question to my studies.
> > >
> > > I1a is dominated by a population of 13,14 at 385a,b. Should I try to
> > > understand its geographical distribution as a combination of two
different
> > > populations --- a 13,14 population and a 14,13 population? Those would
be
> > > two mutational steps apart at the marker pair 385a and 385b. The I1a
> > > 14,14 population would then be considered an intermediate state in the
> > > phylogenetic tree rather than a simple neighbor of the 13,14
population.
> > >
> > > Elsewhere in the total tree of I1a varieties there is the Norse
variety
> > > with 14,14 at 385a,b. This variety is mostly found in
> > > Norway/Sweden/Finland and has DYS 462 = 13 rather than the DYS 462 =
12
> > > found most of the time down in Germany and neighbors. Next to 14,14
I1a I
> > > have a "super-Norse" 14,15 I1a even more confined to
> > > Norway/Sweden/Finland. Are there really two such populations up
there ---
> > > a 14,15 and a 15,14? Actually my phylogenetic tree does divide the
14,15
> > > into two parts, but I had interpreted that as a mutation at another
slow
> > > marker within a single 14,15 population. The tree could now be
> > > constructed quite differently?
> > >
> > > I hope it becomes clear that the phylogenetic tree structure of a
> > > haplogroup's distribution and evolution of haplotypes from a founder
could
> > > become drastically altered if 385a,b for that haplogroup includes
> > > degenerate repeat values N,N in its midst and its neighbors N,N+1 are
> > > really N,N+1 and N+1,N superimposed.
> > >
> > > I hope we can get this issue straightened out.
> > >
> > > Ken
>
>
> ==============================
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