Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2005-01 > 1105551388

Subject: Re: [DNA] Sorenson [15/15 match]
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 17:36:28 +0000

Actually Eric, I think I have an answer for you that squares with objective reality.

Your haplotype is remarkably similar to a number of R1a men in my Shetland Project. You are correct about the markers below being rare. The DYS385a,b 11,15 is what is throwing things off most (the vast majority of R1a males including all my Shelties are 11,14). In addition, I have a half dozen or so who are 23/25 matches with a Czechoslovakian fellow. Now Shetland was settled by the Norse circa 850 AD so the ancestral link is ancient (I have predicted a scattering of Shetland - type R1a haplotypes, very different from what one finds in Poland, for Slovakia, Romania and Hungary if my "Central Asian migration hypothesis" is correct. I suspect that all of these men (my uncle being one of them) share an ancestor in common with the Czechoslovakian fellow over1600 years ago. Stanek is also Slovakian and the match you find is probably not random, but probably harks back to pre - Viking times.

If your ancestors are from Britain, and they are R1a, then they are almost certainly Viking (any Sarmatian or other explanation is way down on the scale of likelihood). You have the Central Asian modal DYS389i,ii of 14,31 (Northern Poland is 13,29) so your closest matches are likely to be in places like Shetland, Kazakhstan and Slovakia - but they are ancient connections. Now if your ancestors were from Slovakia, then following up on the Stanek match could be worthwhile, especially, as Ann has said, if your haplotype is exceedingly rare.

BTW Eric, what is your score on YCAIIa,b? The motif 19,21 or 19,20 has only been observed in Norway and Shetland as well as India and the Middle East(no R1a in Central Asia has yet been tested for this marker); whereas the 19,23 pattern is found everywhere in the R1a world. I have hypothesized that the 19,21 will be found in one or more tribal groups in Kazakhstan and am attempting to arrange testing to verify this prediction.

Coming to the point, if you know your ancestors are English, and you are interested in finding matches that reflect recent descent, anyone with your rare haplotype in Britain is a candidate. However, matches with someone from Slovakia illustrate convergence (random, identical by state) - but hint at an ancient ancestral connection prior to the Viking - Era. I predict that your match would disappear if you could find his other 10 markers.

David F.

-------------- Original message --------------

>Well, I don't have the luxury (or curse) of 100s of 12/12 matches all around
>the place. I only know of 4 - 12/12 matches in the four public databases I
>can access. 2 in Romania, one in southern US via England, and one in
>Slovakia/Bohemia/Moravia (Stanek). The 12/12 match in the US fell away as
>the Carrel FTDNA 26-37 marker panel results were returned. (the outer two
>panel results are back, but for some reason not the second.)
>In the Carroll family project I can match no more than 6/12 with the other
>"Irish" Carrolls there. I use Carrel not Carroll as that is the way my most
>distant ancester spelled it 6 generations ago in Pennsylvania. The
>haplogroup is R1a with an 82% probability using Whit's calculator. The
>"unusual" markers in the first panel are probably (FTDNA) DYS394-19 = 16;
>DYS385a,b = 11, 15; DYS392 = 10; and DYS389-1,2 = 14, 31.
>I haven't looked very closely at the third panel results yet, except to know
>that any route to a common ancestor with the southern US match is fairly
>precluded. (David may recall that haplotype, without putting a surname to
>it, as that family rep. stated to me that she consulted with him about their
>haplotype - which matches my Carrel 12/12, but not beyond.)
>When the middle panel results arrive, no doubt even the Slovak may drop out
>of consideration, and probably the two Romanians.. That will leave me with
>zero matches at any level. So I would be left with a unique, and matchless,
>haplotype. Twisting slowly, slowly in the wind ...
>What to do? Cultivate patience and wait for a miracle in the Carroll family
>project, or dig deeper into the records of the Moravian Church who's first
>missionaries arrived in Pennsylvania in 1741? That is rhetorical and of
>course does not require an answer.

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