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From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
Subject: Geography of I1c a.k.a. I2*
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 09:39:40 -0700


A few days ago I submitted a message showing that there seems to be two varieties of I1c (now called I2* in FTDNA's newest tree) with one variety more present in northern Europe and especially Norway,Sweden; while another variety seems more present in more southerly Europe. This conclusion was based on using 389i,ii repeat values in the YHRD database to discriminate between the varieties. Some folks expressed doubts that geographical correlations could be established with so few STR markers. I think they are looking for something different than I am. They seem to want certain knowledge for their haplotype's deep origins; I am seeking knowledge about existence of separate yDNA populations with different geographical histories.

I went to Sorenson where I could use 459a,b to discriminate. Sorenson is a biased database which underrepresents central and southern Germany, and southern Europe more generally. But there is something to be learned, anyway.

Here are the counts of pedigree origins for the two varieties of I1c in Sorenson. I threw away pedigrees beginning in America or England, believing it would be too subjective to infer their continental origins. I used YCAIIa,b = 19, 21 coupled with 455 = 11, 392 = 12 as the I1c identifier.

459a,b = 8,9 I1c (total 80 haplotypes): 9 Scots, 2 Ulsters, 1 Swede, 1 Belgium, 2 Germans, 1 Swiss.

459a,b = 8,10 I1c (total 145 haplotypes) : 2 Scandinavians, 10 Danes, 1 Swede, 9 Germans, 4 Dutch, 3 Scots

The 8,9 and 8,10 varieties of I1c are also distinquished by about 6 additional modal differences as I have mentioned in previous posts. This Sorenson pedigree data supports the idea that 8,9 I1c (particularly with 15 repeats at 393) is characteristic of Scotland origins while 8,10 I1c is characteristic of Anglo-Saxony origins.

Shall we take bets as to when the academics get around to finding the SNPs which tag these two subclades of I2* a.k.a. (old) I1c?

Ken

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