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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2005-02 > 1108663450


From: "AAF" <>
Subject: Re: DNA] North Sea - Baltic R1bs. Possibly 3 variants, etc.
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:51:01 -0000
References: <20050215000503.86930.qmail@web52108.mail.yahoo.com> <004d01c51347$10d92840$d88b8251@d6e4z6> <001301c5150a$a796c7a0$eb409145@Ken1>


Ken,
The logic of your point is irrefutable. As R1b haplotypes move away from
DYS390=24 then the options are limited to downwards to 23, 22, etc and
upwards to 25 26 etc. I have not looked at these yet, when i get time I will
do, but i don't own the data. It is there for anyone to check my figures and
pursue other ideas. Also, as we both know, analysis of extra markers will
eventually help. I am aware that some alleles for some R1b markers have
never been found in Iberia. Also DYS439=11 looks stronger in
Holland/Denmark, and I recall from the old Yhrd archive that YCA1ia and ib
=19-22 is more frequent in the Baltic areas.

Originally, I thought the Alpine-South German R1bs (at DYS390=24 being about
60% of the total) were simply an overlap/admixture of the NorthSea/Baltic
and Franco-Iberian groups, but then i did the "difference" calculations and
discovered they were far enough apart from both sub-populations to be from a
different "universe". Then I tracked the DYS390=24 down the Rhine, along the
Danube and across to the Ukraine to discover that 60% is the ratio in most
places. Iberia and The NorthSea/Baltic may influence the Rhineland, but
hardly Romania and the Ukraine. Conclusion: there is another variant to the
R1b population.

A further puzzle was that the 70% achieved by the Iberians for DYS390=24
appears unexpectedly and inconsistently in places like Greece, Macedonia,
Albania, and Southern Italy suggesting the Iberian R1bs may have sneaked
along the Mediterranean, while the Alpine/South Germans were doing the grunt
work climbing the hills and going against the flow, up the Danube.

It might also be informative to repeat the excercise with R1a, to see if
there is any discernable contact or overlap between the sub-haplogroups in
eastern Europe/Western asia If only we all had more time!

Bw,
Alan Foster.
============


----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
To: <>
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 4:06 PM
Subject: Re: [DNA] Re: DNA] North Sea - Baltic R1bs. Wanderers from
Russia???


> We know one characteristic of the Greater Frisia (GF) type of R1b; it is
> 23/11 rather than 24/11 at DYS 390, 391. This should allow a
determination
> of the (average squared difference) ASD diversity for the GF type of R1b
for
> comparison against the Atlantic 24/11. A large difference in diversity or
> internal variances would support ancient separation of these two
> populations.
>
> But is there a marker characteristic of the variant you claim for the
alpine
> and South German region? What type of R1b goes up in percentage as the
DYS
> 390 = 24 goes down? (other than the 23/11 type). Not too many options are
> left --- 23/10 or DYS 390 = 25 R1b?
>
> The other route for differentiating any clear varieties of R1b is by
finding
> other markers with clear modal differences between the varieties. I and
> perhaps others have not found much with the "old" collection of Sorenson
or
> Ysearch markers. Sorenson has added 8 new markers in its experimental
> database site. I shall look at 24/11 and 23/11 R1b at these 8 new markers
> to see if any difference exists?
>
> To obtain the ASDs for different sub-populations of R1b we actually need
> some better databases than Sorenson and Ysearch. These two databases are
so
> Brittania-centric and additionally (directly or indirectly) solid in
> Scandinavia, it will be hard to get adequate representation of the R1b
from
> Iberia, France, and Germany south of its northern borders.
>
> I am in the process of calculating the ASD for the GF variety of R1b.
Since
> this variety is centered where many AngloSaxon and Viking immigrants to
> Britain originated, it may be sufficiently well sampled to give a sense of
> this variety's internal diversity. But I don't yet know how to get at
this
> claimed 3rd type of R1b?
>
> Ken
>
> there are
> > possibly three variants to the R1b (sub) haplogroup:
> > (i) a North Sea - Baltic variant originating in the mid-Volga region of
> > Russia;
> > (ii) an Alpine - South German variant ( which would include the
> Rhineland )
> > originating east of the Ukraine ( and possibly from the mid-Volga
area );
> > and
> > (iii) a Franco-Iberian/British "Celtic" variant possibly originating, as
a
> > mutation of the Alpine-South German variant,in the Alpine region. >
BestW,
> > Alan Foster.

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