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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2005-03 > 1111182690


From: "AAF" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Variations of R1b Ydna in Europe: Distribution and Origins
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 22:41:18 -0000
References: <184670-22005351818294483@M2W068.mail2web.com>


David/List.

<> I accept your point about other markers and am in the process of looking
at some.
<> I started with DYS390 because it mutates fairly quickly. Also, I knew
that its Modal 24 allele was especially strong in Iberia and weaker
elsewhere, including that, in 2004, Ken (Nordtvedt) had detected a very high
frequency of 23/11 for DYS390/391 in his "Greater Frisia". When I
discovered, quite unexpectedly, that DYS390 fell off consistently and
symmetrically towards eastern Europe - almost irrespective of the sample
sizes - I began to compare the percentages with the terrain and it was
clear that there had been a combined origin somewhere east of Moscow,
perhaps in Europe or in Asia (Khazakstan); and that from this region there
had been early westwards expansions in two directions: to the Eastern
Baltic and towards the Danube.
<> I examined all the R1bs ( filtered using DYS392=13) in Europe and Western
Asia. Included in this was a careful examination of those in Turkey, Syria,
Iraq, Iran, etc. and those in the Ukraine. All of these show much less
diversity than Central Russia, but Turkey has more diversity than the
Ukraine. A comparison of diversity suggests an expansion path of R1bs
flowed, to the east of the Caspian Sea, northwards from Khazakstan into
Russia. Later, there was a flow between Europe and Iran via the Caucasus,
but I have not yet concluded in which direction it took place. This affects
Turkey since a possibility is that the flow was southwards through the
Caucasus, and then fanning out both eastwards to Iran and westwards to
Turkey. I intend working on this too when I have the time. Whatever I find,
I will post on this list, including, if there is any, contradictory
evidence.
Thanks for your interest.
Alan Foster.
=====================

From: <>
Subject: RE: [DNA] Variations of R1b Ydna in Europe: Distribution and
Origins


> Alan,
>
> Thank you for summarizing all this so clearly. Your observations are quite
> interesting, and I look forward to studying them closely.
>
> I confess that my first thought is one of caution: this seems like a lot
of
> structure to support on allele variation in a single marker. Presumably
> other markers would show similar regional variation if studied. Have you
> reviewed other markers in the YHRD data base within the areas you
> distinguish?
>
> I wonder too about R1b outside of the four main areas you define. You
> allude to the group's "earlier existence in Kazakhstan." Are you then
> looking back to perhaps 30,000 ybp for the origins of all R1b? Would the
> few R1b we find today in -- where, Turkey? I forget -- be descendants of
> that proto-R1b group, or would they somehow be a spinoff from the
> Russian-Baltic group? It would be good to have that data on Near- and
> Middle-Eastern R1b in the comparison, even if they are outliers in terms
of
> your major focus.
>
> I may have missed this, but did you use DYS392=13 as a discriminant for
R1b?
>
> Again, very interesting and thoughtful. Thank you.
>
> David Wilson


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