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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2005-03 > 1111355373


From: "David Wilson" <>
Subject: Useful SNPs and R1b distribution
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 13:49:33 -0800


In light of the current discussion of "useful" SNPs and R1b groups in
Europe, I would like to bring up again a question that has been put to this
list before.

Where in the literature has an individual been reported -- or better, with
an eye to Ken and Ann's recent comments, several individuals -- who can be
categorized as P25+ but M269-?

In the 2005 Haplotree, P25 indicates R1b1 and M269 denotes R1b1c. It seems
to be widely acknowledged that there is huge overlap between these groups.
But if there is 100 percent overlap between the groups defined by these
markers, shouldn't they both be taken as parallel designators for R1b1? What
evidence exists that justifies putting M269 one step downstream from P25?

For several months I have hoped that we would find in Europe someone who was
P25+/M269-; even a tiny bit of structure is better than none. But Alan's
suggestions about Central Asian origins for R1b have made me wonder if such
persons, assuming they exist, would likelier be found further east.

I presume the R1b exemplars from Turkey were established on the basis of
P25, as M269 has only recently been recognized. There is some
differentiation within R1b on the basis of a marker or complex called
P49a,f/TaqI, but I don't yet understand what that locus is structured or
what it tells us. I am plowing through a paper by Poloni, Semino et al.
("Human Genetic Affinities for Y-Chromosome P49a,f/TaqI Haplotypes Show
Strong Correspondence with Linguistics," AJHG 61:1015-1035, 1997), but I am
pretty sure it won't answer my question in light of (1) the recency of
M269's discovery and (2) the speed with which languages change. If the
authors can find associations between a DNA mutation and a recognizable
language family, we can't be looking back more than a few thousand years at
most. We certainly aren't looking back 25,000 years.

I just learned that P49a,f/TaqI seems to be associated with the DAZ gene,
which would put it in the vicinity of DYS464. I suspect that is useless
information in this context, but the association caught my eye and so I
mention it.

David Wilson
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