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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2005-03 > 1111805767


From: "John A. Blair" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Irish R1b? (and Scottish R1b)
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 21:57:03 -0500
References: <200503251546.j2PFkpsR012620@lists5.rootsweb.com>
In-Reply-To: <200503251546.j2PFkpsR012620@lists5.rootsweb.com>


I have 71 participants in the Blair DNA Project who are R1b. Based on the
discussion of markers 390, 391, 392, 385a, 385b, YCAIIa, and YCAIIb I am
hoping someone could comment on an where the following sets might originate
from:

.........Count..390....391....392....385a...385b...YCAIIa...YCAIIb
Set 01.....2.....23.....11.....13.....11.....14
Set 02.....3.....24.....10.....13.....11.....14
Set 03.....1.....24.....11.....13.....10.....15
Set 04.....1.....24.....11.....13.....11.....13
Set 05.....3.....24.....11.....13.....11.....14......19......23
Set 06....17.....24.....11.....13.....11.....14
Set 07.....2.....24.....11.....13.....11.....15......18......23
Set 08....10.....24.....11.....13.....11.....15......19......23
Set 09....16.....24.....11.....13.....11.....15
Set 10.....1.....24.....11.....13.....11.....16......19......23
Set 11.....1.....24.....11.....13.....13.....14
Set 12.....1.....24.....12.....13.....11.....14......19......23
Set 13.....1.....25.....10.....14.....11.....13
Set 14.....1.....25.....11.....13.....11.....12
Set 15.....1.....25.....11.....13.....12.....14......19......23
Set 16.....1.....25.....11.....13.....12.....14
Set 17.....2.....26.....11.....13.....12.....14......19......23
Set 18.....4.....26.....11.....13.....12.....14
Set 19.....3.....26.....11.....13.....14.....15
Total.....71

Thanks,
John
-----
John A. Blair
Goffstown NH
http://blairgenealogy.com
mailto:
BLAIR DNA Project Coordinator

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "David Wilson" <>
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 19:36:30 -0800

When I see DYS392=14 in an R1b context, it definitely catches my attention.
When it occurs in company with DSY390=25 and DYS385a,b=11,13 (or sometimes
11,12) it seems to occur almost exclusively in Ireland and Scotland --
apparently to a slightly greater extent in Ireland. But I don't think 392=14
by itself is a single-marker indicator of Irish roots for British Isles
populations. In the case that David mentioned, the 392=14 is associated with
the more usual R1b values 390=24 and 385a,b=11,14. Maybe in this case the
392 value is an independent mutation at that locus, or maybe the 14
preserves the founder mutation, and the line to David's GGF simply didn't
participate in the 390 and 385 mutations.

Over the last several weeks those of us on the list who have looked at the
25/11/14 pattern (so called from its 390/391/392 values) have taken to
calling it "Irish" R1b as a kind of convenient shorthand, though it's a
little more diffuse than that. But now that there is this other variety of
R1b that looks to be centered in Scotland, perhaps we could call the one
"Irish" and the other "Scottish" for convenience, provided we all
acknowledge that the reality is probably broader in each case than the
simple adjectives would indicate.

The Scottish variety is the one that has 19,24 at YCAIIa,b and DYS390=24 and
DYS391=10. There are some modal shifts at other loci, but these are the
flags that one can recognize most quickly.


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