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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2005-03 > 1112203316


From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Newbie J2 questions
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 10:21:56 -0700
References: <424AD537.2070000@comcast.net>


There are 111 YHRD matches to 15,23,10,11,12 in Europe. Italy seems to be
the hothouse. Scandinavia is only place essentially void of matches.
Adding 10,17 at 385 gives one match in Spain.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bonnie Schrack" <>
To: <>
Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 9:35 AM
Subject: Re: [DNA] Newbie J2 questions


> Hi Frank,
>
> Whew! A lot of questions at once.
>
> > Greetings from a Newbie who is making the transition from a "lurker" to
a
> > list participant.
>
> Hope you keep participating...
>
> > I have ordered a full package from FTDNA, and the results are starting
to
> > arrive.
>
> That must be exciting...
>
> > 393=12, 390-23, 19 (394)=15, 391=10, 385a=10, 385b=17, 426=11, 388=15,
> > 439=12, 389-1=12, 392-11, 389-2=28, 458=16, 459a=8, 459b=9, 455=11,
> > 454=12,
> > 447=28, 437=16, 448=19, 449=29, 464a=13, 464b=13, 464c=15, 464d-16
> >
> > FTDNA suggests that I belong to Haplogroup J2.
>
> Yes, it looks that way.
>
> > Now, Newbie puzzlement begins.
>
> Aw...
>
> > A search for matches among FTDNA customers produced NO exact matches at
> > either 12 or 25 markers. I assume the addition of the remaining markers
> > will not change this. They did show 2 at a distance of 2, +3 at a
> > distance
> > of 3, +6 at a distance of 4, and +19 at a distance of 5. The following
> > possibilities occur to me.
> > 1. There are no FTDNA exact matches.
> > 2. There may be FTDNA exact matches, but those people have not
authorized
> > release of their information.
> > 3. FTDNA has made some kind of mistake.
>
> No worries, Frank. Unlikely that FTDNA has made any mistakes here.
>
> > If the situation is #1, I am surprised, since 12 marker matches seem
> > to be
> > common. #2 is possible. #3 is possible but, hopefully, improbable.
>
> The reason you've heard that 12 marker matches are common is that the
> people who have them are in the BIG haplogroups, R1b, R1a, and I
> (various clades). They have millions more members than J2. Your lack
> of matches is mainly a function of that; also the fact that there is a
> lot of haplotype diversity in J2. That is, a lot of variation in STRs
> among people who are J2.
>
> It's common, I believe, for people in J2 not to have any exact matches,
> even at 12 markers.
>
> This would not be the case if there were thousands of people from say,
> Turkey, Iraq and Iran getting tested, not to mention Italy and Greece.
> But at the moment, most of those being tested are from Northern and
> Western Europe, so % of J2 among customers is going to be scanty.
>
> > Ysearch's Haplogroup Distribution graphic indicates that J2 represents
> > about 2.42% of their analyzed haplogroups. A haplogroup search of their
> > database discloses 166 J2 individuals, which represents less than 2%
> > of the
> > database population.
>
> Yes, exactly -- and the situation at Ysearch is much better than at
Ybase...
>
> > A search of Ybase at 25 markers produces no exact matches and no 1,2 or
3
> > mismatches. Their distribution graphic indicates about 1% J2.
> >
> > Relative Genetics produced no exact matches, +1 single mismatch, + 7 2
> > mismatches, +17 3 mismatches, +3 4 mismatches. I could not find any
> > information regarding haplogroups. I submitted a DNA sample to them some
> > time ago, but apparently I am not yet included in their database since I
> > did not match myself.
>
> Are you talking about the Sorenson database here? They don't give
> haplogroup information, you have to figure that out yourself. They have
> some interesting haplotypes, a lot of people from Brazil and so on who
> they have sampled, but since you can't contact the DNA donor, it can be
> tricky...you're lucky if they have a good pedigree on file.
>
> > If I understand the technicalities correctly, I must have the following
> > SNPs to get to J2.
> >
> > SRY, M42, M94, M139
> > M168, P9
> > P14, M89, M213
> > M12f2a
> > M172
> > 1 or more additional SNPs to reach J2 subclades
>
> Sounds right... I haven't checked on your accuracy for the further-up
> ancestral SNPs.
>
> > FTDNA "suggests" that I am J2, and will conduct an SNP analysis for
> > confirmation (for some additional $). That being the case it seems
> > apparent
> > that the suggestion is based on an STR pattern.
>
> Yes, exactly. They have formulas that allow them to estimate pretty
> well what haplogroup people belong to. Only problem is that the J
> haplogroup can't really be divided very well into J1 and J2 without
> doing a SNP test, since there is a lot of fuzziness & overlap in the STR
> haplotypes. The SNP test is not very expensive. However, you do look
> pretty clearly the be somewhere in J; if you want to be certain it's J2,
> you could go for the SNP test. Most J people from Europe are J2 rather
> than J1. Or, you could wait a year or two until they have the SNP test
> for the J2 subclades available, which will be much more interesting,
> since the subclades can be mapped to geographic areas, etc.
>
> > Am I correct in assuming that EVERYBODY has all of the STR markers
> > that are
> > tested by the various companies, and that the combination of test
results
> > are what define the probability of belonging to a specific haplogroup?
>
> Yes, the STR markers are generally there whether they test them or not
> -- is that what you meant? Like when a tree falls in the forest? :-)
> By choosing the right ones to test, they hope to be able to find
> patterns that point to the haplogroup one is in. Don't know why it
> should be so hard to do a SNP test instead...
>
> > I think I am getting it, but my head is spinning.
>
> You're doing very well for a newbie!
>
> > Is there a set of modal J2 haplogroup STR values? I have scrounged
> > something together from bits and pieces found on the Internet, but
> > have no
> > idea whether or not it has any validity.
>
> This is what I've been working on. There are several modes in J2. It's
> risky to speculate about which one was ancestral. The one that seems to
> me to be most central is (in FTDNA order of
> 393-390-19-391-426-388-439-389I-389II)
> 12-23-14-10-11-15-11-13-11-29
> I could extend it to other markers, but that's enough for now. Write to
> me if you want to know about a specific marker.
> I've omitted 385a,b because it's quite variable. Common varieties are
> 13,17; 13,16; 14,16; 14,17; 14,15; 13,18; etc.
>
> Your 10,17 is quite unusual, which is what no doubt prevents you from
> having any exact matches. There is someone named Weatherford at Ysearch
> who has it; you are pretty close to his haplotype, so it might be
> interesting to look at that.
>
> That family is also one of those that I'm tentatively placing in J2e,
> which could be wrong, but there is certainly a distinct cluster. Your
> haplotype isn't as clear right off the bat, but the common 10,17 is
> interesting.
>
> > It appears that available J2 data are scarce, probably because
> > there are not many J2s in France to begin with.
>
> Right.
>
> > Oh well, at least I am learning the deep ancestry probabilities of how
my
> > "Y" trail got TO France.
>
> Well, that is a big topic in itself -- how our J2 ancestors got to
> Northern Europe -- something that we'll be chewing on for years.
>
> Welcome to J2!
>
> Bonnie Schrack
>
> http://www.ancientrootsresearch.com/Schrock/Schrock-Schrack-Schrag.html
>
>
>
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