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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2005-05 > 1116951480


From: Don Stone <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Prime I1a Candidates for DYS385 Order Measurement
Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 12:18:02 -0400
References: <000a01c55f24$5307ab00$c6559045@Ken1><4292D1E3.1080404@verizon.net> <011a01c56077$694966c0$72a0bf43@YOURF8387228BF>
In-Reply-To: <011a01c56077$694966c0$72a0bf43@YOURF8387228BF>


Phil Goff wrote:

> Don,
>
> As a general rule, I believe when DYS462=12, DYS390 may equal 22 or
> 23. However, when DYS462=13, DYS390 is almost always 23. I suppose
> this is because DYS462=12 was an early event in I1a, resulting in more
> diversity, as computed by Ken Nordtvedt below:
>
> "T = Age of DYS 390 = 22 I1a (ancestral I1a was probably [12] 14, 22,
> 13, 14 at DYS [462], 19, 390, 385a,b)
> .95 T = Age of DYS 462 = 12 I1a (this age should probably equal T;
> it's shown to illustrate model accuracy)
> .91 T = Age of [12] 14, 22, 14, 14 I1a
> .85 T = Age of DYS 462 = 13 I1a (probably [13] 14, 22, 14, 14)
> .84 T = Age of [12] 15, 22 I1a
> .77 T = Age of DYS 390 = 23 I1a (probably [13] 14, 23, 14, 14)
> .64 T = Age of [13] 14, 23, 14, 15 I1a"
>
> Me again. As I understand it, DYS390 mutations from 22 to 23 happened
> independently in DYS462=12 and DYS462=13 of I1a. You seem to fall into
> the former category. The migration of DYS385a/b from 13/14 to 14/14 or
> 14/15, etc., seems to be greater in each of the independent mutations
> of 390=23, based on my limited probe of the Sorenson database.While my
> probe of Sorenson was not conducted in a balanced manner, I get the
> same basic story if I sort on ysearch data.
>
> (DYS390/DYS462, # of DYS385a/b that are 14/14+/total observations)
> 22/12, 18/100 (18%) (ysearch= 9/57, 16%)
> 23/12, 12/32 (38%) (ysearch = 4/7, 57%)
> 23/13, 30/43 (70%) (ysearch = 6/9, 67%)
>
> It seems to me that your 23/12 value has also experienced a high
> incidence of "wiping the slate" for 385a/b, which may mean that your
> 13/14 value could be 13/14 or 14/13. (As a side note, it would be
> interesting to explore why 23/12 and 23/13 have higher rates of 14/14+
> versus 22/12. It would seem to me that it should be the opposite,
> based on the age of each mutation. This is another example of why I
> believe there is some mathematical or physical relationship between
> markers that cause patterns that I wouldn't otherwise expect.) As you
> noted, you aren't in the ultra-Norse category described by Ken. You
> are, however, in a branch of I1a for which I've not seen the Kittler
> test results. In my opinion there is value in your taking the
> 385a/b(K) test as it may help sort out the structure of your branch of
> I1a. Ken can clarify if others with your haplotype have been tested.
>
> Phil


Thanks, Phil. I'm receptive to taking the 385a/b(K) test if it would be
useful. I guess I'll see whether Ken says my haplotype has been tested.

Incidentally, are there any other markers (besides DYS462) tested by
Sorenson but not in the FTDNA set of 37 that could be informative?

-- Don Stone (DYS19,390,385a,b=14,23,13,14; DYS462=12)


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