Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2005-06 > 1117838346

From: "" <>
Subject: RE: [DNA] R1b and DYS437
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 18:39:06 -0400

I just took a fast run through my 4000-haplotype R1b data base and I didn't
see any overwhelming correlations between DYS437=14 and surprising values
at other markers.

Contrary to your 23/11 suggestion, it looks as though the percentage of
haplotypes with DYS390=23 when 437=14 is about in line with the normal
distribution. (See Whit's Super-WAMH page.)

On the other hand, it may be the case that 390=25 slightly more often than
usual when 437=14. But it's not a big correlation.

I didn't see anything else. If there is a correlation, it must be regional.

David W.

Original Message:
From: (David Faux)
Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 21:57:37 +0000
Subject: [DNA] R1b and DYS437


I have just been exploring the revised Niederstatter (2005) Austrian
database (thanks David W.) and have made what might be an interesting

There are 40 R1b SNP tested haplotypes, and one potentially ancestral
P*(xR1ab). Of these, 37 have DYS437 = 15. There are two = 14, and one =

It would seem that this marker might take on the role of a quasi - SNP with
what appears to be a low mutation rate and a low variance at least in the
population sampled.

As expected, considering its Germanic location, the sample has a relatively
(compared to Western Europe) large number of the 23/11 motif described by
Ken and others (DYS390/391).

I have also been reading Brion's 2005 paper on Iberia and the R1b Y-STR
data for Valencia (Southern Spain) is strikingly similar to the Germanic
samples and bears little relationship to the R1b for Northern Spain
(Galacia and Basque Country - Cantabrian Coast). The latter two are very
similar to patterns seen in parts of Britain lightly touched by Invader

Working under the hypothesis that the reason why there are only Iberian
(particularly Basque) plus Ireland matches to my own motif in the YHRD
databse(unfortunately DYS437 is not tested) has to do with specific marker
constellations seen rarely east of Iberia I checked some pertinent

Puerto Rico (presumably Spanish origin) has an equal number of 14 and 15
(out of a sample size of 17)
Wales is almost exclusively 15
Southern Ireland is almost exclusively 15
Ulster and Lowland Scotland and the Border Region
is a mix of about half 14 and half 15
Norway is almost exclusively 15
Northern Scotland is almost exclusively 15

These are only preliminary observations and ideally I would like to find
about two other markers that cluster with DYS437 = 14. Granted that I have
a lot more work to do but perhaps out of the 700 or so souls out there I
can find someone who will burst my bubble and save me doing a lot more

I realize that this 14 is one of the reasons why the ancestral Faux
haplotype has 171, 12/12 matches (judging by surnames most from Ireland and
England or Lowland Scotland) in the FTDNA database, but not one 23/25 or
better match other than the other 4 Fauxes who tested. The question is
whether this just signals a very rare R1b haplotype, or whether there is a
set of markers which point to early origins beyond Norfolk. Yes, I am a
tad obsessive - some would say bulldog with a bone.

David F.

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