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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2005-06 > 1117860354


From: (David Faux)
Subject: RE: [DNA] R1b and DYS437
Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 04:45:54 +0000


David, Gareth, John et al.:

There is a wonderful resource which I just discovered. Robert Tarin has created a pdf accessed via Terry Barton's site which compares Iberian haplotype markers (37 FTDNA) with their non - Iberian counterparts.

In connection with my hypothesis re DYS437 my rare 14 is seen in 26% if Iberians but only 11% of non - Iberians.

Of those markers which deviate from the R1b modal values, 6 of 7 have the value more common in Iberia. For example DYS464a = 14 is found in 36% of Iberians but only 15% of non - Iberians.

Now it could be just a coincidence that my haplotype is overwhelmingly more similar to those from Iberia than non - Iberians but I have already gone on record as positing a connection between the haplotypes of Northern Spain and parts of Britain due to a common ancestry probably in pre - historic times. Here follows the markers which have the Iberian motif in someone whose paternal ancestors are from East Anglia, England:

DYS439=13
DYS437=14
DYS449=28
DYS464a=14
DYS460=10
DYS456=15

DYS447=24 which is the non - Iberian motif.

Whether this means anything of consequence remains to be seen. However it certainly appears to bolster my hypothesis of an Aboriginal Briton origin as opposed to Norman, Anglo - Saxon, Danish, or Norse Invader.

David F.




-------------- Original message --------------

> I just took a fast run through my 4000-haplotype R1b data base and I didn't
> see any overwhelming correlations between DYS437=14 and surprising values
> at other markers.
>
> Contrary to your 23/11 suggestion, it looks as though the percentage of
> haplotypes with DYS390=23 when 437=14 is about in line with the normal
> distribution. (See Whit's Super-WAMH page.)
>
> On the other hand, it may be the case that 390=25 slightly more often than
> usual when 437=14. But it's not a big correlation.
>
> I didn't see anything else. If there is a correlation, it must be regional.
>
> David W.
>
> Original Message:
> -----------------
> From: (David Faux)
> Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 21:57:37 +0000
> To:
> Subject: [DNA] R1b and DYS437
>
>
> List:
>
> I have just been exploring the revised Niederstatter (2005) Austrian
> database (thanks David W.) and have made what might be an interesting
> observation.
>
> There are 40 R1b SNP tested haplotypes, and one potentially ancestral
> P*(xR1ab). Of these, 37 have DYS437 = 15. There are two = 14, and one =
> 16.
>
> It would seem that this marker might take on the role of a quasi - SNP with
> what appears to be a low mutation rate and a low variance at least in the
> population sampled.
>
> As expected, considering its Germanic location, the sample has a relatively
> (compared to Western Europe) large number of the 23/11 motif described by
> Ken and others (DYS390/391).
>
> I have also been reading Brion's 2005 paper on Iberia and the R1b Y-STR
> data for Valencia (Southern Spain) is strikingly similar to the Germanic
> samples and bears little relationship to the R1b for Northern Spain
> (Galacia and Basque Country - Cantabrian Coast). The latter two are very
> similar to patterns seen in parts of Britain lightly touched by Invader
> groups.
>
> Working under the hypothesis that the reason why there are only Iberian
> (particularly Basque) plus Ireland matches to my own motif in the YHRD
> databse(unfortunately DYS437 is not tested) has to do with specific marker
> constellations seen rarely east of Iberia I checked some pertinent
> databases.
>
> Puerto Rico (presumably Spanish origin) has an equal number of 14 and 15
> (out of a sample size of 17)
> Wales is almost exclusively 15
> Southern Ireland is almost exclusively 15
> Ulster and Lowland Scotland and the Border Region
> is a mix of about half 14 and half 15
> Norway is almost exclusively 15
> Northern Scotland is almost exclusively 15
>
> These are only preliminary observations and ideally I would like to find
> about two other markers that cluster with DYS437 = 14. Granted that I have
> a lot more work to do but perhaps out of the 700 or so souls out there I
> can find someone who will burst my bubble and save me doing a lot more
> investigating.
>
> I realize that this 14 is one of the reasons why the ancestral Faux
> haplotype has 171, 12/12 matches (judging by surnames most from Ireland and
> England or Lowland Scotland) in the FTDNA database, but not one 23/25 or
> better match other than the other 4 Fauxes who tested. The question is
> whether this just signals a very rare R1b haplotype, or whether there is a
> set of markers which point to early origins beyond Norfolk. Yes, I am a
> tad obsessive - some would say bulldog with a bone.
>
> David F.


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