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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2005-06 > 1117957817


From: "M True" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] R1b and DYS437
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 08:50:17 +0100
References: <BKEPIIDHHKEPCMDIEBKBMEKFCHAA.andrew.en.inge@skynet.be>


Hi Andrew,

Thanks for your comments and especially for picking up on the Burgundy
thing. Sorry - that was meant to be *Gascony* near the Pyrenees. (I don't
know where I got Burgundy from!!). So the Lloegrians were meant to have
come from Gascony. Whether this was true or a misunderstanding of the
medieval trading links between Gascony and England by someone writing in the
Middle Ages I can't say at this stage.

You are quite right that the Welsh word Saeson comes from the word Saxon and
that was the point I was making that although they called the Saxons Saxons
they did not call the land the Saxons lived in Saxonland or something
similar but something totally different namely Lloegr.

"In Roman and Greek times the peoples of Britain were generally referred to
as Britains or Prydani etc but they were not thought of as homogeneous."

Britain is still known as Prydain in Welsh today. The Romans certainly had
different names for each of the Celtic tribes in Britain but to what extent
they were based on ethnic lines I am uncertain.

Also I agree that the standard view is that Brittany was named after
immigrants from Britain and that previously it had been called Armorica (by
the Romans) but the period mentioned by the tradition regarding the
settlement of Britain is talking of the time before the Roman conquest of
Gaul and Britain.

My understanding is also that the tribes of Britain were often war with one
another.

I need to check my sources and try to cross reference them..

"Nevertheless they probably existed in easily
recognisable communities in England into early Norman times."

This is probably true especially since the Welsh were not allowed to trade
and would have had different customs and a different language to the Normans
and the Anglo-Saxons.

Despite the close geographical proximity of Britain to France and the
Netherlands I find it interesting that there is a persistent tradition that
the Welsh and the Gaels came to Britain via Iberia.

Regards,

John.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew and Inge" <>
To: <>
Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 7:04 AM
Subject: RE: [DNA] R1b and DYS437


> John
>
> It is certainly true that the Welsh lived in what is now England.
> Genetically they still do, but their language and name have disappeared.
And
> therefore it does indeed seem likely that their name for that area might
be
> something from their own history. But Saeson would come from the word
> "Saxon". For the rest of what you say, I think you should check your
source
> and then try to confirm it against others.
>
> It is my understanding that Cymry is a word from late Roman times and was
> originally something like Cumbrogi, and meant something like federated.
> Welsh writings tells us that without Roman power the Welsh actually found
it
> a challenge to work together. Nevertheless they probably existed in easily
> recognisable communities in England into early Norman times. Before the
> Romans they certainly fought a lot.
>
> In Roman and Greek times the peoples of Britain were generally referred to
> as Britains or Prydani etc but they were not thought of as homogeneous.
>
> Also Burgundy is very far from the Pyrenees and Britanny is known to have
> been named after many immigrants came from Britain. It had been called
> Armorica.
>
> Best Regards
> Andrew
>
>
> ==============================
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