Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2005-06 > 1118020115

From: "David Wilson" <>
Subject: RE: [DNA] perfect 25 marker match with no mutations--but different surnames
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 18:08:35 -0700
In-Reply-To: <018301c56a23$f48391b0$6288bf3f@Terra>


First, a minor side issue: your email program is set to force all replies to
go to your personal address. If you leave the "reply to" setting blank, you
should find that replies to anything you post to the list will default to
the list as well.

Be cautious about identical matches between individuals with different
surnames. I'm still waiting for my first 25/25 match with a Wilson, though I
have a dozen or more 25/25 matches with individuals with different names.
Maybe there is a nonpaternity event involved, but that would explain a
surname match with one other surname. Nonpaternity shouldn't be invoked to
explain a surname match with several unless there has been an overlooked
Genghis Khan factor in recent British Isles history.

Here is a thought experiment that may illustrate a potential issue: Consider
two individuals a thousand years ago who stand at a genetic distance of six
from one another -- unrelated, under the five-or-fewer rule of thumb for
possible relatedness. Among the descendants of each man it is possible to
imagine three or four mutations in any of the several lines of descent down
to the present. If you had the right three mutations in one line from each
original man, you could close the original gap and end up with a perfect
25/25 match between two of their modern descendants. But those two will
still have no recent common ancestor.

Now having said that, there are reasons to look more closely at the example
you give. One would usually encounter close matches between individuals of
different surnames when the individuals involved show haplotypes that are
very close to the modal (i.e., most frequent) values encountered for the
haplogroup to which they both belong.

You don't fit that situation really well because you have some interesting
differences from the mode at a couple of markers. The value pair 11,16 at
385a,b is not often found. The value 14 at 392 is also not often found, and
you will probably be interested to hear that it is an indicator for a
variety of R1b that seems to have developed in northern or western Ireland
sometime in the last three to five thousand years. The "Irish" variety of
R1b usually has DYS390=25, DYS391=11 and DYS392=14 with 385a,b=11,13. It
also has a couple of other mutations that are off the modal values for
general R1b, some of which your Lyle and Mason examples have and some of
which they don't. It almost looks as though your haplotypes could be
intermediary between the more frequently encountered forms of R1b and the
Irish variety.

So my thoughts boil down to this: you have a close match that involves some
infrequently found values at some significant markers. That begs attention
and suggests a possible family relationship. On the other hand, bear in mind
the fact that possible convergent mutations could have created the match
accidentally by accumulating changes in two unrelated lines.

Next steps should involve looking closely at other Masons and Lyles, if
there are some, to see whether one of the samples you have is distant from
virtually everybody else in his surname project. And to the extent possible,
you should explore geographical origin. I know your Lyle is from Northern
Ireland. What about the Mason?

Hope this helps.

David Wilson
Wilson Surname Project co-administrator

-----Original Message-----
From: Diane [mailto:]
Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 4:11 PM
Subject: [DNA] perfect 25 marker match with no mutations--but different

Perfect 25 marker match with no mutations --but different surnames--
Since there are no mutations, does that mean we are likely related much
closer in time than the 600 years that is 90%.

Lyle surname:
B3BE9 Lyle Derry/Londonderry, Northern Ireland R1b

DYS 393 DYS 390 DYS 19/394 DYS 391 DYS 385a DYS 385b DYS 426 DYS 388
DYS 439 DYS 389-1 DYS 392 DYS 389-2 DYS 458 DYS 459a
DYS 459b DYS 455 DYS 454 DYS 447 DYS 437 DYS 448 DYS 449 DYS 464a DYS 464b
DYS 464c DYS 464d DYS 460 GATA H4 YCA IIa YCA IIb DYS 456
DYS 607 DYS 576 DYS 570 CDY a CDY b DYS 442 DYS 438 =

13 24 14 11 11 16 12 12 13 13 14 30 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 14 15 16 17 11
11 19 23 16 15 19 17 36 37 12 12
James Mason- surname 25 markers = SYV7R

13 24 14 11 11 16 12 12 13 13 14 30 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 14 15 16 17
We also have a 25 marker match with Stephens surname with 2 off.

Thanks for any opinions.

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