GENEALOGY-DNA-L ArchivesArchiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2005-06 > 1118335180
From: "Andrew and Inge" <>
Subject: RE: Kittler on E3b
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 18:39:40 +0200
Has anyone ever done a Kittler test on an E3b haplotype, or is anyone
keeping notes of things like this?
I haven't had this done with my husband's 385a,b because they are 18,18.
SOme people suggest that I do so, and probably will in the future. He
only has four exact matches in the YSearch. I would very much like to
have subclade testing but at this point don't know which markers would
As you may have read, we may be doing the same for someone in the small
group with my maternal grandmother's Livingstones (others include
Beatty, Wilson, Mcclay, Porter, Fergie, Furry). They belong to a seeming
R1b subclade with 385=15,15 (instead of say 11,14). I am told that while
this doubled marker is clearly different from normal, it might have been
caused by a special type of mutation whereby one 385 segment was copied
onto the other position. In other words, it might not have happened
through a series of one step mutations. It strikes me that you are in an
equivalent position. And you might be able to do the same sort of thing.
Are you in contact with you matches? We are hoping to prepare a website
soon for our possible sub-clade. In our case the more we look at the
small group with this marker the more we see a seeming localization in
Scotland and we have some reasonable hope of going down to a region
within Scotland. (As you might know Scottish surnames were flexible but
they do tend to indicate something about regions and or allegiances deep
back into the middle ages.) This could be a case where an interest in
the deep genetics can eventually help guide people in paper trail
searches. In our case, once we started making contact we also starting
seeing potential links (for example Furry is thought of as an Irish
name, but a quick search around found that it is also a variation of
Fergie in Scotland).
I am increasing his FTDNA markers to 37 plus 5 from biotix.
Once I have all the markers, then perhaps I will also do the sequencing
on the multiple repeat markers.
As I understand it, the big cost is setting up a DNA sample, after that
each test is a relatively small amount. It is rather handy to have a
flexible additional supplier like this.
E3b seems to have travelled all over the place, all around the
Mediterranean, up the rivers of central Europe, back into Africa and up
into the British Isles. Itchy feet? Herders? Nomads? Or did they come
with agriculture? No one seems to know. That is something I would really
like to know and hopefully, one of these days, the information needeed
will be identified. My husband's family are Ashkenazik Jews from Belarus
(Babruysk and Pobolov) and Ykaterinaslav in the Ukraine, but there is
some information that they came to Pobolov or Babruysk from Germany in
the 1840s to work in the lumber business. It is not good enough
information for a family tree or GEDCOM, just that people with his
family name and others went there at that time for that purpose as an
entire Hasidic congregation. He was haplogroup tested as M35+. So the
best I can really say is the family was central european within
historical time. Before that, nobody knows.
Well, E3b (M35) and more specifically E3b1 (M78) both seem to have
started in the horn of Africa, and moved with the first seeds of
civilization up the Nile, into the Middle East and then over to the
Balkans on the one hand and North West Africa on the other. I presume
that it is most likely that I am M78, and if you are too, then what I
now understand is the DYS460 might help you determine which cluster of
M78 you are in. You should get that result with your 37 marker upgrade.
As far as I can see, the Ashkenazic and Spanish matches I have at say 12
markers, all disappear when you look at more markers. Maybe this is just
an early impression that will be shown wrong when more people are on
public databases but it seems my branch of E3b is from the Balkans, and
is currently most diverse in the most isolated parts of that mountainous
peninsula, such as Albania, and the Republic of Macedonia. It also seems
that the branching remains pretty thick as far north as the Alps.
Above the Alps, I think the lack of pattern, plus what we know of
Europe, so far suggests that there has been a constant steady flow of
E3b1 lines over the Alps for 1000s of years, and maybe up to 10000. On
the other hand I see no reason to exclude the possibility that E3b might
sometimes have been a higher % of northern European populations than
now. (Just for example, before the Romans? before the Indo-Europeans?
Before the Germanic push from the north? Before the Slavs and others
came from the East in late and post Roman times?)
Ashkenazic Jews on the other hand mainly came to Eastern Europe via
Germany, and before Germany most of them probably had ancestry from
further West, in France and Spain. In other words most of them would
have deep ancestry which was not linked to the Balkans but eventually
went back to the Middle East, where there are local M78 types (but
different on DYS460?) and also other M35 types without M78.
Nevertheless I do not wish to imply that the distinction between
Ashkenazi E3bs and Northern European E3bs is totally certain yet. I
think the Cruciani article and Dennis Garvey's statistics show what has
been seen so far. And apart from the possibility they and others have
missed something, there is also the fact that some Jews, even Ashkenazic
ones, must have had Balkan paternal ancestors (consider the links
between Palestine and Greece/Alexandria in New Testament times, not to
mention the more ancient history of mysterious folk like the "Sea
Peoples") and some Northern Europeans would certainly have had Jewish or
Middle Eastern paternal ancestors. There is also some speculation, I
understand, about the Khazars who had converted to Judaism in central
Eurasia long before the Ashkenazim arrived. In fact where they lived was
not so far from the Balkans. I know of nothing concrete though.
I should also make sure: have you looked at Dennis Garvey's information
and the Cruciani and Semino papers?