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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2005-06 > 1118337077


From: ellen Levy <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] RE: Kittler on E3b
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 10:11:17 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <BKEPIIDHHKEPCMDIEBKBOEOJCHAA.andrew.en.inge@skynet.be>


Andrew:

I don't disagree with most of your analysis here,
except the assumption that Ashkenazim carried their
E-M78 results with them from their Israelite
background. It is fairly clear from the DNA research
that this is probably not the case, though they
probably did carry a very small percentage from their
Middle East migrations. Among Ashkenazim, E-M78 is
far more prevelant among Eastern than Western groups
and therefore the majority of this sub-clade among
Ashkenazim is due to admixture with Balkan, Greek and
Italian sources.

One last thing to clarify for the list. Sub-branch
E-M78 is not "Balkan" per se. Rather, a specific
haplotype appears to have originated there. It is, in
fact, the most wide-spread sub-group of E3b in the
world and remains in very high frequency among
Africans, Middle Easterners and Europeans.

Ellen Coffman

--- Andrew and Inge <> wrote:

> > E3b seems to have travelled all over the place, >
> Well, E3b (M35) and more specifically E3b1 (M78)
> both seem to have
> started in the horn of Africa, and moved with the
> first seeds of
> civilization up the Nile, into the Middle East and
> then over to the
> Balkans on the one hand and North West Africa on the
> other. I presume
> that it is most likely that I am M78, and if you are
> too, then what I
> now understand is the DYS460 might help you
> determine which cluster of
> M78 you are in. You should get that result with your
> 37 marker upgrade.
> As far as I can see, the Ashkenazic and Spanish
> matches I have at say 12
> markers, all disappear when you look at more
> markers. Maybe this is just
> an early impression that will be shown wrong when
> more people are on
> public databases but it seems my branch of E3b is
> from the Balkans, and
> is currently most diverse in the most isolated parts
> of that mountainous
> peninsula, such as Albania, and the Republic of
> Macedonia. It also seems
> that the branching remains pretty thick as far north
> as the Alps.
>
> Above the Alps, I think the lack of pattern, plus
> what we know of
> Europe, so far suggests that there has been a
> constant steady flow of
> E3b1 lines over the Alps for 1000s of years, and
> maybe up to 10000. On
> the other hand I see no reason to exclude the
> possibility that E3b might
> sometimes have been a higher % of northern European
> populations than
> now. (Just for example, before the Romans? before
> the Indo-Europeans?
> Before the Germanic push from the north? Before the
> Slavs and others
> came from the East in late and post Roman times?)
>
> Ashkenazic Jews on the other hand mainly came to
> Eastern Europe via
> Germany, and before Germany most of them probably
> had ancestry from
> further West, in France and Spain. In other words
> most of them would
> have deep ancestry which was not linked to the
> Balkans but eventually
> went back to the Middle East, where there are local
> M78 types (but
> different on DYS460?) and also other M35 types
> without M78.
>
> Nevertheless I do not wish to imply that the
> distinction between
> Ashkenazi E3bs and Northern European E3bs is totally
> certain yet. I
> think the Cruciani article and Dennis Garvey's
> statistics show what has
> been seen so far. And apart from the possibility
> they and others have
> missed something, there is also the fact that some
> Jews, even Ashkenazic
> ones, must have had Balkan paternal ancestors
> (consider the links
> between Palestine and Greece/Alexandria in New
> Testament times, not to
> mention the more ancient history of mysterious folk
> like the "Sea
> Peoples") and some Northern Europeans would
> certainly have had Jewish or
> Middle Eastern paternal ancestors. There is also
> some speculation, I
> understand, about the Khazars who had converted to
> Judaism in central
> Eurasia long before the Ashkenazim arrived. In fact
> where they lived was
> not so far from the Balkans. I know of nothing
> concrete though.
>
> I should also make sure: have you looked at Dennis
> Garvey's information
> and the Cruciani and Semino papers?
>
> Best Regards
> Andrew
>
>
> ==============================
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