Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2005-06 > 1118442889

From: "" <>
Subject: RE: [DNA] RE: Kittler on E3b [Ashkenazi matches]
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 18:34:49 -0400


I'm sure Ellen will address your question too, but I'd like to jump into
the conversation because I recently discovered my first E3b ancestor (a
maternal 3G grandfather) and I have been thinking about this same question.

You probably already know that the values you report point to two different
subgroups of E3b1 -- the alpha cluster and the beta cluster. The alpha
cluster tends to have higher values at 385a,b -- 16,18 or 17,18 for
example. Your results of 18,18 appear to be consistent with that pattern.

But you also have DYS391=9, which is a relatively low value often found
among those who belong to the E3b1-beta cluster. E3b1-betas usually have
lower value pairs at DYS385 -- commonly 13,14.

A study by Cruciani ( may be of
interest to you. It appears the E3b clade defined by SNP M78 divided at the
eastern end of the Mediterranean several thousand years ago, and the group
that became the alpha cluster proceeded to Spain through Europe, and the
group that became the beta cluster proceeded across Africa to regions south
of the Straits of Gibraltar. E3b1-beta then presumably moved into Spain
during the Moorish period.

There is a similar E3b clade, E3b2, that also appears to be associated with
NW Africa and can be found in Spain. But it tends to show the values 14,30
at 389i,ii instead of 13,30. (This is actually a two-step difference
because of the way DYS389 is reported.)

On balance, I think I weigh the evidence of DYS385 more heavily. Your
haplotype looks like an E3b1-alpha to me. But others on this list have
studied E3b longer than I have and may be able to correct me. If so, I look
forward to reading their comments.

David Wilson

Original Message:
From: victor villarreal
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 15:28:21 -0500
Subject: RE: [DNA] RE: Kittler on E3b [Ashkenazi matches]

This is my first participation on this list and I hope you don't mind that
I'm addressing my question to you.
I have noticed that that you are very knowledgable and have a deep
understanding of these matters. On our surname project we have several E3b
haplotypes and our opinions are divided on what kind of subclade our E3b
could belong to or what is the most likely geographical origin.
Could you please take a look at the following markers a give a brief
impression. As some of the other list subscribers, our REO list some
Ashkenazi near matches but our oldest ancestors that we know of migrated
from Spain to the New World. We are waiting for the new subclade tests to
become available.
393 13
390 25
19* 13
391 9
385a 18
385b 18
426 11
388 12
439 12
389-1 13
392 12
389-2 30
458 15
459a 9
459b 9
455 11
454 12
447 26
437 14
448 20
449 32
464a** 15
464b** 16
464c** 16
464d** 18
Victor Villarreal

p.s. Comments are welcome!

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