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From: victor villarreal <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] RE: Kittler on E3b [Ashkenazi matches]
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 08:32:28 -0500
References: <39330-220056510223449612@M2W046.mail2web.com> <BKEPIIDHHKEPCMDIEBKBCEAJCIAA.andrew.en.inge@skynet.be>
In-Reply-To: <BKEPIIDHHKEPCMDIEBKBCEAJCIAA.andrew.en.inge@skynet.be>


Andrew,
Your insight is most helpful. I'll put upgrading to 37 markers on my
things-to-do list to find out about the value at DYS460. I'll keep in touch.
Thanks
Victor

On 6/11/05, Andrew and Inge <> wrote:
>
> Dear David and Victor
>
> I am sure Ellen will point out that Cruciani has another M78 group which
> he
> does not define - the gamma cluster. His charts show that there must be
> observations in Europe. It seems to be a more diverse set of haplotypes
> than
> the other clusters?
>
> One interesting point from the Cruciani paper is that DYS460 should be 9
> for
> alpha cluster, DYS460 is a marker which gets tested by FT DNA if you
> upgrade
> to 37 markers, and therefore we can cross check Garvey's guesses using Y
> search. This does confirm that he seems to have the correct alpha cluster
> DYS markers as people coming within one marker of his typical signature
> all
> have DYS460 = 9 or 10. Also, if you use Sorenson with the Garvey signature
> and try every possible DYS460, you get most hits for 9, a few for 10, and
> only 2 Slovenian with the same surname for 11 - no others.
>
> In summary, Cruciani divides M78 clusters like this:
> alpha: DYS460(A7.1)=9, YCAIII(DYS413)=24,23 or one step neighbours
> beta: YCAIII(DYS413)=23,21, DYS439=10
> delta: DYS19=11
> gamma: "shows a notable microsatellite differentiation"
>
> A remark worth making is that Cruciani uses the term E3b1a to refer to
> M78,
> whereas the standard now is E3b1.
>
> Best Regards
> Andrew
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [mailto:]
> Sent: Saturday, 11 June 2005 12:35 AM
> To:
> Subject: RE: [DNA] RE: Kittler on E3b [Ashkenazi matches]
>
>
> Victor,
>
> I'm sure Ellen will address your question too, but I'd like to jump into
> the conversation because I recently discovered my first E3b ancestor (a
> maternal 3G grandfather) and I have been thinking about this same
> question.
>
> You probably already know that the values you report point to two
> different
> subgroups of E3b1 -- the alpha cluster and the beta cluster. The alpha
> cluster tends to have higher values at 385a,b -- 16,18 or 17,18 for
> example. Your results of 18,18 appear to be consistent with that pattern.
>
> But you also have DYS391=9, which is a relatively low value often found
> among those who belong to the E3b1-beta cluster. E3b1-betas usually have
> lower value pairs at DYS385 -- commonly 13,14.
>
> A study by Cruciani (http://www.ftdna.com/pdf/hape3b.pdf) may be of
> interest to you. It appears the E3b clade defined by SNP M78 divided at
> the
> eastern end of the Mediterranean several thousand years ago, and the group
> that became the alpha cluster proceeded to Spain through Europe, and the
> group that became the beta cluster proceeded across Africa to regions
> south
> of the Straits of Gibraltar. E3b1-beta then presumably moved into Spain
> during the Moorish period.
>
> There is a similar E3b clade, E3b2, that also appears to be associated
> with
> NW Africa and can be found in Spain. But it tends to show the values 14,30
> at 389i,ii instead of 13,30. (This is actually a two-step difference
> because of the way DYS389 is reported.)
>
> On balance, I think I weigh the evidence of DYS385 more heavily. Your
> haplotype looks like an E3b1-alpha to me. But others on this list have
> studied E3b longer than I have and may be able to correct me. If so, I
> look
> forward to reading their comments.
>
> David Wilson
>
>
>
>
>
> Original Message:
> -----------------
> From: victor villarreal
> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 15:28:21 -0500
> To:
> Subject: RE: [DNA] RE: Kittler on E3b [Ashkenazi matches]
>
>
> Ellen,
> This is my first participation on this list and I hope you don't mind that
> I'm addressing my question to you.
> I have noticed that that you are very knowledgable and have a deep
> understanding of these matters. On our surname project we have several E3b
> haplotypes and our opinions are divided on what kind of subclade our E3b
> could belong to or what is the most likely geographical origin.
> Could you please take a look at the following markers a give a brief
> impression. As some of the other list subscribers, our REO list some
> Ashkenazi near matches but our oldest ancestors that we know of migrated
> from Spain to the New World. We are waiting for the new subclade tests to
> become available.
> 393 13
> 390 25
> 19* 13
> 391 9
> 385a 18
> 385b 18
> 426 11
> 388 12
> 439 12
> 389-1 13
> 392 12
> 389-2 30
> 458 15
> 459a 9
> 459b 9
> 455 11
> 454 12
> 447 26
> 437 14
> 448 20
> 449 32
> 464a** 15
> 464b** 16
> 464c** 16
> 464d** 18
> Thanks.
> Victor Villarreal
>
> p.s. Comments are welcome!
>
>
>


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