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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2005-06 > 1118599814


From: "M True" <>
Subject: R1b some haplotypes & Possible Geographical Origin
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 19:10:14 +0100


I have been going through a list of 306 people from a search made on YSearch a few weeks ago against my own 49 markers with the idea of trying to connect certain R1b haplotypes to geographical areas in the British Isles or Europe by matching peoples stated origins with the origins of their surnames.

Any comments, discussion etc about this is particularly welcome, but please remember I am not an expert, just an interested hobbyist. As a bit of background my paternal origins and surname go back to south Lancashire as well as that of my nearest match on the 37 FTDNA markers - Eckersley and Barlow, two very traditionally Lancashire surnames.

There are names below which are associated with more than one place eg Radcliffe, however, if the stated location is the same as one of the surname origin locations I have marked them as a match.

The search was made on those records with at least 25 markers who matched mine with a leeway of 1 on up to 23 markers:

My Values lowest value possible in search Highest value possible in search Group Modal Values

393 12 11 13 13
390 24 23 25 24
19 14 13 15 14
391 11 10 12 11
385a 11 10 12 11
385b 14 13 15 14
426 12 11 13 12
388 12 11 13 12
439 12 11 13 12
389-1 13 12 14 13
392 13 12 14 13
389-2 29 28 30 29
458 17 16 18 17
459a 9 8 10 9
459b 10 9 11 10
455 11 10 12 11
454 11 10 12 11
447 24 23 25 25
437 14 13 15 15
448 18 17 19 19
449 27 26 28 29
464a 15 14 16 15
464b 15 14 16 15
464c 17 16 18 17
464d 17 16 18 17
460 10 9 11 11
H4 11 10 12 11
YCAIIa 19 18 20 19
YCAIIb 23 22 24 23
456 16 15 17 16
607 15 14 16 15
576 18 17 19 18
570 18 17 19 17
CDYa 39 38 40 38
CDYb 39 38 40 39
442 12 11 13 12
438 12 11 13 12



The following *possible* haplotypes have been extracted using the 11 YHRD markers where either surname origins and stated origins agree or appear close (such as within one county). OR where there seems to be an interesting feature about the results. Each haplotype is listed below giving only those markers which are different to the modal values for the group. They have been named after the Surname and Ysearch reference which appears to make the geographical connection. Where someone's origin is given as a place outside Europe (eg the USA, Canada etc) I have taken what appears to be the most likely origin of the surname for that person where possible. But I have not done this for the main person in each group whose stated origin and surname origin agree - only for those within that group where a "fixed" main person has already been assigned.

Ht 1 "Pickup" Y78PM
390 = 25
385b = 13
392 = 14

The surname Pickup comes directly from the placename of Pickup in Lancashire. When this haplotype is entered into YHRD results only come back for the British Isles. Similarly if 439=12 is used as well as those marker values above more results are found but still only within the British Isles.

Surnames & Places
Pickup, Lee, McFadden, McGee, McAulay, Vahey, Wilson
Lancashire, Cheshire, Donegal & Tyrone & Mull & Islay & Kintyre & Tiree, Donegal & Tyrone, Westmeath, Galway & Berwickshire

Ht 2 "Barlow" Q8M73
393=12
Surnames & Places
Barlow & Eckersley
Lancashire & Cheshire

Ht3 "McManus" SARYC
390=25
391=10
Surnames & Places
McManus
Roscommon (Ireland)

Ht4 "McManus" 5XW7C
392=14
385b=13
Surnames & Places
McManus
Roscommon (Ireland)

Ht5 "Foster 7RCAT & Cunningham G58GU"
390=23
439=11
Surnames & Places
Foster, Cunningham & Anglos
Northumberland, Ayrshire
(Anglos apparently comes from the surname of the aristocracy in Motteville, Normandy - but the name Anglos itself seems to indicate someone from England)

Ht6 "Johnson" Y8BX3
391=10
Surnames & Places
Johnson, East, Hunt, Cotton, Little, Staples & Park
Lincolnshire, Essex, Shropshire, Huntingdonshire, Lanarkshire, Devon & Cumberland

Ht7 Haviland C3NMG
393=12
391=10
439=11
Surnames & Places
De Haviland
Barfleur, Normandy ->Guernsey->Somerset
Butler
Kilkenny (Ireland)
(NB Butler: Theobald Fitzwalter a distinguished Norman noble accompanied Strongbow, the Earl of Pembroke to Ireland and was created Chief Butler of Ireland in 1177).

Ht8 Ballantyne CC7M
390=25
439=13
Surnames & Places
Ballantyne
Ayrshire & Lanarkshire

Ht9 Haughton EQGUF
390=23
439=11
389ii=28
Surnames & Places
Haughton, Lee & Smith
Cheshire, Cheshire, Staffordshire (stated origin) & Northumberland (surname origin)

Ht10 Reber H6TJ2
385b=13
Surnames & Places
Reber
Wurtemberg (stated origin) & Upper Rhineland (surname origin)
Other surnames = Reynolds, surname origin Somerset OR Connacht
Roberts, stated origin= Bahamas, surname origin = Denbighshire, Wales

Ht11 McLean HUSUM & Thompson J286N
391=10
439=11
389ii=30
Surnames & Places
McLean & Thompson
Mclean: stated origin = Cawdor, Inverness-shire, surname origin = Western Isles
Thompson: stated origin = Newcastle, Northumberland, surname origin = Cumberland

(when using these values on YHRD only one result is found being the Szekely population, Miercurea Ciuc, Romania. [probably coincidental that Szekely is close in sound to Eckersley - although my haplogroup match at FTDNA at the 12 marker level is with someone from the Uighyr population, a people on the western border of China associated with the settlement of Hungary..so who knows!)

Ht12 Ratcliff KMMMO
390=23
391=10
Surnames & Places
Ratcliff
Lancashire

Ht13 Buchanan CDV44 & McKenzie M67DM & HY4RC & McDonald AHYJK
This group of 56 have the modal values for the 11 YHRD markers. The only three I can seem to fix so far with any certainty are the three names above.
Surnames & Places
Buchanan: Stated origin= Perthshire, surname origin = Lennox (only difference from mode is GATAh4=12 and CDYb=38)
McKenzie: "" = Ross & Cromarty, surname origin = Ross (only diff from mode 459=18, CDYa=36, CDYb=37)
McDonald: "" = Skye , surname origin = McDonald of the Isles Clan? (only diff being 576=19, CDYa=40, CDYb=40)

53 other various name and locations:

Ht14 Propes NHCXU & Ball GBB5U
DYS19 = 15
389i = 14
389ii = 30
Surnames & Places
Propes & Ball
Cheshire

(N.B. although neither person gives their origin as Cheshire (one cites "Virginia" and the other "England"), I am listing this because it seems coincidental that both people with this same pattern of markers have surnames which are said to originate in Cheshire. It is also interesting that the Propes surname is said to be descended from Ynyr King of Gwent).

Ht15 Rauch NX29Q
385b=15
391=10
439=13
Surnames & Places
Rauch
Stated origin = Baden Wurtemberg
surname origin = Bavaria

Ht16 Curran YE64H
391=12
392=14
385b=13
Surnames & Places
Curran
Stated origin = Wexford
Surname origin = Waterford

-------

Finally, tying in with David Faux's earlier conversation on R1b and possible ancient origins in the British Isles as mentioned earlier my paternal roots are from Lancashire, England. This area was home of the Setantii a "sept" of the Brigantes tribe. The link below is the only information I can find on the Setantii who appear to be Brythonic Celts with links to SĂ©tanta (CĂșchulain) of Ireland and to the Welsh epic of Culhwch and Olwen, where Seithennin, the bard, is grandfather to Gwenwynwyn, generally identified as Gawain.

http://www.amounderness.com/site/setantii.htm

My searches on Ysearch and Sorensen bring back closest matches of people called Barlow (Lancs/Cheshire) but interestingly enough on YBase my nearest matches are:
YC9TX Bryant 34/48 = 71% match, stated Breton origin (surname origins are either Breton, Welsh or Irish)
Y6FEI George 34/48 = 71% match, stated Cornish origin (surname found in many places) SNP tested R1b1 P25+
I8A8E Staples 34/49 = 69% match, unknown origin (surname origin Devon) R1b8 (Basque Catalan)
TIDP4 Haugland 33/43 = 77% match, unknown origin (surname origin Carmarthenshire)

I hope that someone at least finds some of this interesting!

Regards,

John Eckersley.


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