Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2005-06 > 1118778397

From: "Mark MacDonald" <>
Subject: RE: [DNA] Campbell origin
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:55:47 -0500
In-Reply-To: <>


I'll try. By Dalriadic, I mean the group of irish invaders to Scotland
traditionally believed to be led by three brothers, Fergus, Lorne, and Angus
around 465 AD. Those brothers were traditionally believed to be great(?)
grand sons of Colla Uais who had conquered Ulster and burned Emain Macha its
capital with his brothers also named Colla around 325 AD. Colla Uais became
High King for a brief period and then was driven into a brief exile in
Scotland with followers from his principal families. He returned to Ireland
after marrying a princess of the southern picts but most of his followers
stayed. The initial capital was at Dunadd in southern Argyll. I believe
they spoke a form of Q celtic, i.e. son of is Mac. Ultimately, from this
small kingdom with whom St Columba was closely tied came the line of King
Kenneth MacAlpin circa 840 AD who united the picts and the scots. According
to traditional histories of St Columba he freed the Scottish portion of
dalriata from its irish military service obligation to irish dalriata
located in Antrim.

By brythonic in this discussion I refer to the residents of the Kingdom of
Strathclyde and ( I believe by memory Bernicia),an area before 400AD roughly
bounded originally by Dumbarton Rock near Glasgow, Dun Eidin ( Edinburgh),
Carlisle and Berwick which had a P celtic language. These peoples began to
incur angle and saxon invasions by the late 400s and were pushed to the
west. They were heavily harmed by the Viking invasions of the 880s and 890s,
some migrated south and became the " Men of the North" in modern Wales. A
broader linguistic definition would also include all of the original
speakers of proto P celtic throughout Britain ( excluding Ireland). That
broader definition should not impact the Campbell discussion.

Mark Mac Donald
-----Original Message-----
From: Steven C. Perkins [mailto:]
Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 1:28 PM
Subject: RE: [DNA] Campbell origin


Can you put that in plain English? Are you saying they are not R1b, or
they are a certain subset of R1b which is not native British Isles? What
are you trying to say here? What is your understanding of "dalriadic"
"brythonic", etc.



At 12:39 PM 6/14/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>Check the Clan Campbell genetic web site which hasn't changed substantially
>in the last year since I was in contact with them. It still concludes
>brythonic in analysis but shows the Campbell modal values as 22/25 with the
>Colla signature. That is pretty darn close for up to fifteen hundred years
>of mutation.
> Some Campbells are 20 at 458 but so also are one MacDonald from Knoydart
>and 4 McCutcheons from Skye. We have a MacDonald and a McCook( MacHugh,
>MacGough) at 19 for 458 but the Antrim McCookes are at the original 18. We
>have 12 385s at 11 15 named either MacDonald or McCutcheon( we have 27 at
>the original Colla value of 13 24 14 10 11 14). The mutations within our
>own dalriadic population are more than sufficient to explain the Campbell
>Sellar was thoughtful and analytical but didn't have the genetics. A
>dalriadic Campbell paternal blood line better explains why the Clan Donald
>chief Angus Mor was willing to marry the sister of a Campbell chief in the
>1200s( I believe it was MacAlein Mor's sister).
>As I said, as National Historian I didn't love the Campbell result but the
>science seems inescapable.
>Mark Mac Donald
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Steven C. Perkins [mailto:]
>Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 11:08 AM
>Subject: [DNA] Campbell origin
>The following link summarises information
>in David Sellar's article, "The Earliest Campbells - Norman, Briton or
>Gael?", published in _Scottish Studies_, 17 (1973), 109-25. The article
>concludes that the Campbells are probably from the O'Duibne. Also see this
>Seemingly being a McDonald genetically, and a Campbell (Steven Curtis
>Campbell Creekmore Perkins) I am interested in knowing of any refutation of
>Sellar's conclusions.
>Steven C. Perkins
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