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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2005-06 > 1118778728


From: "M True" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] R1b some haplotypes & Possible Geographical Origin
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 20:52:08 +0100
References: <000001c56ffd$77c25280$5aae99de@BigMem2>


Dear John,

Thanks very much for the link to your chart. I recognise two names from
previous searches trying to find distant matches with DYS393=12, namely
Blair (Blair of Blair line) and Stewart.

On Ybase I have a 33/43 (77%) distant relationship to the surname Haugland.
This is a Carmarthenshire surname which is apparently related to Hugh,
Hughes, Hews, Hughs etc. Interestingly enough another distant match of
33/49 (67%) is McGee "In Irish it is Mag Aodha, i.e. son of Aodh or Hugh"
http://www.mymcgee.com/ which may just be coincidence? There seems
confusion as to whether McGee is a SW Scottish or a Donegal/Tyrone surname.

Also if you look up the surname Bryant (71% match) at
http://www.houseofnames.com/xq/asp/s.bryant/Origin.EN/sId./qx/coatofarms_det
ails.htm the crest is shown as the flag of St. Andrew? Does anyone know of
any Scottish connection?

John Eckersley.





----- Original Message -----
From: "John McEwan" <>
To: <>
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 10:51 AM
Subject: RE: [DNA] R1b some haplotypes & Possible Geographical Origin


> Dear David, John et al
>
> Attached is a link to a piece of whimsy that I did recently.
>
> http://nz.msnusers.com/McEwanFamilyGenealogy/Documents/IrishScottishsurn
> amesY.mht
>
> As you already know most surnames became frozen about 800-1100 years
> ago, and their origin at that time was therefore normally geographically
> clustered. Thus it is a fair assumption that using surname as a "proxy"
> for ancient geographic location/origin will identify STR patterns within
> R1b that are difficult to identify by sampling groups of people based on
> current location or the location of their grandfather (eg Capelli). The
> nature of this relationship is uncertain but could reflect events and
> common ancestral origins up to 1000-5000 years ago.
>
> To date I have seen few investigations of the Y chromosome relationships
> BETWEEN rather than within surnames in this list or elsewhere. Of course
> the data currently available is not that good either.
>
> I tend to use clustering programs to identify initial "putative"
> relationships between groups, rather than struggle with a mass of raw
> numbers. In this case I am interested in Scottish and Irish surnames and
> their Y chromosome haplotype relationships. Obviously I am interested in
> the origin of the McEwan surname and whether the Y chromosome
> information can be reconciled with oral and written history including
> related Dal Riada clans.
>
> I realise this approach has potential interpretation traps and
> underlying assumptions (possible multiple origins of a surname,
> incorrect parentage events, how variability within surname groups is
> handled) and is also susceptible unstable results due to small numbers
> available per surname. You should treat these results as a preliminary
> and useful for exploratory analysis only.
>
> Surname classification based on historical sources is also somewhat
> arbitrary, and could be improved if surnames were "positioned" by county
> using the 1840 census.
>
> However the approach also has advantages
> 1) it uses all information at all markers (in this case 25 STR
> markers)
> 2) it provides a graphic representation of the results from which
> the human eye can easily detect patterns and propose testable hypotheses
> 3) it identifies "surprising results" that can be investigated in
> greater detail using alternative and more detailed methods to elucidate
> likely errors in historical genealogy, haplotype results or analysis.
>
> In this case names that both of you mention: Wilson, Staples, Johnstone,
> Buchanan, McDonald are included in the analysis. You will also note that
> generally historic geographic location/origin of a surname and the Y
> chromosome information generally correspond.
>
> Exceptions are pretty obvious, some of which have previously used up
> quite a bit of bandwidth on this listserver such as the probable Norse
> origin of the McDonald's from Somerled (also putatively a relation of
> the McEwan's if ancient genealogies are to be believed). It does not
> cluster with other Dal Riada related surnames. However, some exceptions
> should be expected due to migration events prior to 1000AD.
>
> Hopefully this information will aid your future investigations.
>
> Yours sincerely
>
> John McEwan
> 11 Doon St
> Mosgiel
> New Zealand
> Ph +64 3 489 3648
> e-mail
>
>
>
> ==============================
> Jumpstart your genealogy with OneWorldTree. Search not only for
> ancestors, but entire generations. Learn more:
> http://www.ancestry.com/s13972/rd.ashx
>


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