Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2005-06 > 1118876566

From: "Peter A. Kincaid" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Campbell origin
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 20:02:46 -0300
References: <><003b01c571ef$efcc8e50$ac5ac242@charlie1>
In-Reply-To: <003b01c571ef$efcc8e50$ac5ac242@charlie1>

Aside to what John Chandler noted, a blazon in a quarter does not
prove direct male descent; albeit the first quarter is a good place.
Furthermore, by your own information the arms of Rhys Goch of
Ystrad Yw were "Argent a dragon's head erased vert holding in its
mouth a hand Gules" so the quartered arms are a differenced arms.
This is then open to interpretation. Kincaids today are being
granted coats of arms which contain themes around the basic
traditional Kincaid coat of arms which included Gules a fess Ermine
and a triple towered castle in base. No descent from the original
Kincaid who may have been entitled to these arms are given. These
are used as they have, by tradition, been associated with Kincaids.
A step back even further, the Gules a fess Ermine part is associated
with Crawfords. These could have come to the Kincaids by descent
or by the Kincaids using arms associated with that of their superior
(the later now almost certainly appears to be the case). These examples
could very well apply to the arms you cite as well. It would be better
to build a case based on a lineage of coats of arms versus just one

Best wishes!


At 06:19 PM 15/06/2005, you wrote:
>Peter; I have read "The Welsh Origin of John Lewis" by Grace Moses, an
>extremely well documented book.
>I don't know how to *prove* things that happened pre-history,
>pre-literacy. I can only offer these facts:
>In 1948, Malcom Harris dug up a tombstone in VA, which subsequently proved
>to be that of John Lewis, died 1657, later his son Edward's was found in
>much better shape. You could not display arms not belonging to your
>lineage. The Dragon with a bloody hand in his mouth is there. I have seen
>The Coat-of-Arms is shown, the dragon cut vert holding the human hand
>bloodied, with the crest of a dragon cut vert as well. This is the
>original Lewis Coat-of-Arms as held by Rhys Goch, the first identifiable
>"Lewis". Rhys Goch was born sometime around 1070 AD. He was noted in many
>of the bards legends handed down from his day.
>From: John Lewis, Gent. of Monmouthshire and Poropotanck Creek, Va. (d. 1657)
>Arms: Quarterly: 1st, Argent a dragon's head erased vert holding in its
>mouth a hand Gules (Rhys Goch of Ystrad Yw); 2nd, Gules three castles
>triple-towered Argent (Prince, later Sir Howell of Caerleon, Glam.) 3rd,
>Gules three Chevronells Argent(Jestin ap Gwergan) 4th, Azure three Plates
>(Sir Walter de Trevely of Llandewi Rhydderch Mon.)
>Note: Their cousins, the Morgans of Llanelly Crickhowell used the same
>arms, except for repeating Rhys Goch in the 4th quarter.
>Crest: A dragon's head erased vert holding in its mouth a hand gules.
>In: Harris, Malcom, "John Lewis 1594 - 1657". Va. Mag. of Hist. & Biog.
>Vol. 56 (1948) pp. 195-205. Vol. 62 p-481. Tombstones of John Lewis and
>his son Edward Lewis Arms.
>The same author who wrote "Lewis Patriarchs of Early Virginia and
>Maryland" wrote a book explaining how to read the ancient Coats of Arms.
>Janet Lewis Crain
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Peter A. Kincaid" <>
>To: <>
>Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 10:51 AM
>Subject: Re: [DNA] Campbell origin
> > At 03:44 AM 15/06/2005, you wrote:
> >>>The British Kingdom around Edinburgh/Stirling was known as the Votadini or
> >>Goutodin. It did not survive.
> >>
> >>
> >>But the genes did. They came on down through the leaders and rulers in
> >>Wales and eventually entered the British Royal Line through the Tudors.
> >>Additionally the genes flow through the Lewises, Pritchards, Rhys, Rice,
> >>Price, Morgans, etc.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Janet Lewis Crain
> >
> >
> > So some say. I'd like to see this documented in a way that is
> > without dispute. For one, check out the Gen-medieval archives
> > for discussion on this to see what I mean.
> >
> > Best wishes!
> >
> > Peter
> >
> > ______________________________
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