GENEALOGY-DNA-L ArchivesArchiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2005-06 > 1119029384
Subject: Norman character : was [DNA] sub rugrat level
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 13:29:44 EDT
I'm curious - how you (Glen) would characterize the "Norman character"?
In the archives are some discussions we've had over the past couple of years
about probable haplogroups we could find in Normandy, based on Norman
history - French DNA results have been hard to come by. There were Celtic &
Frankish & other populations in the area that became known as Normandy later when
the Vikings arrived in the 9th & 10th centuries. So we could reasonably expect
a mix of R1, I1, and other Y haplogroups in the "native" Frankish population
at the beginning of the Viking era, a lot of R1b in the Celtic people, then
presumably more "Scandinavian" input during & after the Viking era.
William's invasion army in 1066 included many hired Celtic Bretons (from
Brittany), so he may have helped a Celtic mini-immigration from Brittany to
southern England via Hastings :-).
In any case, it's difficult to know the composition of the Norman
population, before & after the Vikings, but it seems clear that it was already
well-mixed before Rollo arrived.
My haplogroup is I1a1, Ken's H4 variety, (likely split from I1a in western
Norway - hopefully, we'll get an ever sharper picture as we gather more test
data to analyze), my paper trail ends in Devon & Dorset in 1577. English &
French history say that people with my surname were among the Normans, shortly
after Rollo arrived, and there are some villages named for them.
So, I've been interested in Norman history & genealogies for quite some time
now, and just recently, someone with surname Umfreville was referred to me
(probably by David Faux - more on that later). He has a confirmed paper trail
to ~1440 in Normandy, and English history links his ancestors to historical
Umfrevilles and traces the lineage back to 1088 in Normandy. He has tested
with Oxford Ancestors and I'm currently trying to convince him to get an SNP
test. He's currently estimated to be R1a, and his 10 OA markers match several
FTDNA folks who are SNP tested as R1b. I suspect he's also R1b. 9 of the OA
10 are in FTDNA's 12, not enough to be conclusive.
Part of another current thread: SNP testing is the way to confirm
haplogroup. There's a fair degree of self-estimated haplogroups in Ysearch & other
databases, and some of them are inaccurate.
n a message dated 6/17/2005 4:49:42 AM Pacific Standard Time,
While we wait for some SNP tests to be done on the new clade (probably of
I), I'm interested in why you believe it has a Norman character?
Concerning its "I" status, has anyone found one of these haplotypes with
confirmed basic M170+ or other "I" SNP test result?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Glen Todd" <>
Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 10:18 PM
Subject: RE: [DNA] sub rugrat level
> Seriously, though, it's interesting that this new subclade of 'I' that
> working on (and to which I seem to belong) seems to have a decidedly
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