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From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Two Varieties of y-haplogroup N3 in Europe
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 11:51:58 -0600
References: <003001c574f0$c7742d60$5a579045@Ken1> <42B5A915.4090606@biotix.de>


Budapest shows only 1 haplotype of either kind out of 193. Northeastern
Europe N3 is quite different from Ural Mountain or Siberian N3. If Hungary
has any of this N3 from those easterly regions it will be a different
haplotype motif, and I have not investigated that yet. The Butler list of
haplotype examples shows several from Siberia. They look quite different
than the NE Europe N3.

My hunch is that there was a Baltic population who were first arrivers
after the last glacial maximum into a wide region around the eastern Baltic.
They subsequently got squeezed into lesser area by other haplogroups
arriving from south, west, and southeast. Then a second arrival of
Finno-Ugric peoples occured. So yes, my hunch agrees with the thrust of
your question. But I am not sure the researchers at Tartu agree with me,
and they may lean toward the genetic drift or founder effect creation of the
one variety from the other. The division looks too sharp to me for this
interpretation. My population of the DYS19 = 15 haplotypes from Sorenson
(the non-Finn type) is rather small, so I doubt that good age estimates from
population variance can be determined yet.

I never look at 438/439 anymore in YHRD because it is present in so few of
the databases. But I should check again for NE Europe databases. My
experience is that 438 hardly ever changes, especially for subclades of a
haplogroup.439 is strongly of the same modality for both varieties; 439 =
10.


I have determined the Sorenson database 43 marker modal forms for the two
varieties of N3 discussed here. The bifurcation at DYS19 is supported by
different modals at 4 more markers. The most interesting is 459a,b which is
pure 9,9 for the DYS19 = 15 variety and mostly 10,10 for the DYS19 = 14
variety.
Note that N3 is the haplogroup with the most dramatically common doubling of
reported allele lengths at 459, 464, and CDY: it appears to occur just about
all the time within this haplogroup.

The two varieties seem to differ at 389i,ii, one being modal 14/30 and the
other 13/29. One variety is pure at 390 and the other evenly divided at 390
into co-modal repeat values. They differ at 442 and 446. It seems that the
Finn variety is further dividable into two further sub-varieties, but I have
not successfully done this yet.

Ken


----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Krahn" <>
To: <>
Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2005 11:19 AM
Subject: Re: [DNA] Two Varieties of y-haplogroup N3 in Europe


> Ken,
>
> Could this mean, that there have been comming two different
> Finno-Ungristic populations into this regions, maybe at different times?
>
> How are theese populations related to today's Hungarian population?
>
> Wouldn't it make sense to proof this with another slow marker, maybe
> DYS438? - or are there too few entries in YHRD?
>
> Thomas
>
> Ken Nordtvedt wrote:
>
> > I have done a more complete tabulation of the two varieties of N3
haplotypes found in YHRD. I used the motif DYS392,3932 = 14,14 as
identifier of N3 which is rather good in the European context for isolating
this NE European haplogroup associated with Baltic and Finno-Ugric peoples.
I then show the two geographically separated varieties of N3 by getting the
counts in YHRD regional databases for DYS19 = 14 and DYS19 = 15. The former
is the dominant Finn and Saami variety.
> >
> > There is a sharp line between the two varieties at the Estonian/Latvian
border. By the time you get to Poland the N3 is almost purely DYS19 = 15.
> >
> > The researchers at the Tartu University Evolutionary Biology Institute
who are studying N3 in depth may eventually have something to say in their
publications about this deep bifurcation in Northeastern Europe N3.
> >
> >
> > COUNTRY (SAMPLE SIZE) --- DYS19 = 14 ---DYS19 = 15
> >
> > Finland (399) --- 208 --- 15
> > Tartu (133) --- 29 --- 10
> > Central Norway (48) ---2 --- 0
> > Eastern Norway (85) --- 2 --- 0
> > Northern Norway (45) --- 7 --- 2
> > Western Norway (64) --- 4 --- 0
> > Southern Norway ( ) --- 0 --- 0
> > Oslo ( ) --- 0 --- 0
> > Sweden (405) --- 26 --- 4
> > Gotland (41) --- 1 --- 0
> > Ostergotland (42) --- 2 --- 0
> > Uppsala (57) --- 5 --- 1
> > Varmland (43) --- 2 --- 0
> > Vasterbottom (41) --- 5 --- 3
> > Blekinge (42) --- 1 --- 0
> >
> > ---------------------------------------
> >
> > Novgorod (50) --- 3 --- 0
> > Vladisvostok (148) --- 8 --- 1
> > Moscow (85) --- 2 --- 3
> >
> > Denmark (247) --- 0 --- 1
> >
> > ---------------------------------------
> >
> > Riga (145) --- 6 --- 21
> > Vilnius (157) --- 3 --- 22
> > Byelorus (69) --- 1 --- 4
> > Kiev (183) --- 1 --- 4
> >
> > Bialystok(Byelorus) (157) --- 0 --- 13
> > Gdansk (543) --- 1 --- 13
> > Bialystok (182) --- 0 --- 1
> > Wroclaw (222) --- 0 --- 4
> > Warsaw (240) --- 1 --- 2
> > Suwalki (82) --- 0 --- 8
> > Krakow (207) --- 1 --- 5
> > Bydoszcz (168) --- 0 --- 3
> >
> > Berlin (549) --- 1 --- 5
> > Griefswald (208) --- 0 --- 2
> > Rostock (203) --- 1 --- 2
> > Leipzig (808) --- 2 --- 4
> > Chemnitz (820) --- 3 --- 3
> > Halle (234) --- 1 --- 0
> > Hamburg (275) --- 3 --- 3
> > Magdeburg (283) --- 2 --- 4
> >
> > Ken
> >
>
>
> ==============================
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