Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2005-06 > 1119571976

From: "gareth.henson" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Haplogroup F*
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 01:12:56 +0100
References: <021801c5778f$c5eeaff0$6401a8c0@whit> <000501c57793$75506cb0$5a579045@Ken1> <00b601c577e7$71c2f500$7302a8c0@YOURF8387228BF> <00d601c57848$b8eaef30$7302a8c0@YOURF8387228BF> <000501c5784c$55f42b40$5a579045@Ken1>

Ken & Phil

another possible explanation for the similarity of the F* haplotypes to
groups G to K is that there are as yet undiscovered SNPs downstream to
P14/M89 (defining macrogroup F) but upstream to the SNPs currently defining
the main haplogroups i.e.M201 for G, M69 for H, M170 for I, etc. Some of
these could be shared by two or more of G to K (just as M214 links N and O),
others could just add a new level to one of the groups in the same way that
M343 added a level to R1b. The F*s who were positive for a "shared" SNP
would have to be redefined as e.g. IJ*.
I think this is more likely than back mutations on critical SNPs.

I don't know why the YCC left all the "spare" haplogroup letters (S onwards)
at the end, it would have made more sense to keep some spare near the
beginning and in the middle.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
To: <>
Sent: Friday, June 24, 2005 12:36 AM
Subject: Re: [DNA] Haplogroup F*

> FTDNA does not test M170 and M258, only P19. Rootsi used the former two
> not the third for establishing yhaplogroup "I". So I guess each could
> back mutations in their excluded SNPs. Bell 326 seems like a good
> for David Faux to test M170 and M258 as well as M223. Probability seems
> negligible that three SNPs would have back mutations. David, are you back
> home and in business?
> Last summer I was tested for M253, M307, and P30 --- all defining SNPs for
> I1a. I tested positive for M253 and P30, but negative for M307. But
> are real problems with such a result since some papers have indicated they
> found no M253+, M307- haplotypes out of a broad sampling of I1a
> Fortunately I also tested P40+ putting me further downstream in I1a1.
> I and others have asked through the months what the error rate is in
> reported SNP test results from the companies? The question is still of
> interest.
> Ken
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Phil Goff" <>
> To: <>
> Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2005 5:08 PM
> Subject: Re: [DNA] Haplogroup F*
> > List,
> >
> > With the permission of the Beal Group Administrator, I contacted Bennett
> > Greenspan to inquire about the Bell 326 SNP test. Here's an excerpt of
> > Bennett's response: "The sample was tested for G-K and was negative so
> > was called an F*."
> >
> > The collection of SNP-tested F* results that I have observed are all
> > the board and resemble various forms of G, H, I, J or K. Is it possible
> that
> > F* is really a collection of G, H, I, J and K, which have independently
> had
> > back mutations? Haplogroup I has three defining mutations, but as
> discussed
> > on the List today, did all three really arise in one birth? Might there
> > people out there with only one of M170, P19, or M258? If so, the
> possibility
> > of a back mutation would seem to be greater than if three mutations had
> > back mutate.
> >
> > (Ken will recognize the above as a more tame variation of a theory I
> floated
> > privately a few days ago). Thanks,
> >
> > Phil

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