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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2005-06 > 1119587580


From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Haplogroups J and G; 49a,f haplotype system
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 22:33:00 -0600
References: <42BB832A.6080800@comcast.net>


Rootsi et al measured 49a,f ht for the branches of "I". Their data sheet
shows I*, I1c, I1b2, I1a all mostly 12 but I1b having 10. They used this to
suggest that I1a and I1c may have shared a common (intermediate?) origin
and are closer to each other than to I1b. I1a and I1c also share YCAIIa,b =
19,21 motif.



----- Original Message -----
From: "Bonnie Schrack" <>
To: <>
Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2005 9:51 PM
Subject: [DNA] Haplogroups J and G; 49a,f haplotype system


> I found the references I was looking for on the possible common ancestry
> of 2 haplogroups, which turn out to be J and G.
>
> In Peter Underhill's 2001 paper, The Phylogeography of Y chromosome
> binary haplotypes and the origins of modern human populations," a
> neglected paper, it says "The Levantine population of farmers that
> dispersed into Europe during and after the Neolithic carried these
> African Group III M35/M215 lineages, together with a cluster of Group VI
> lineages characterized by M172 and M201 mutations. By integrating p49f
> RFLP polymorphism data, it was shown that the p12f 8 kb, M172 and M201
> lineages share a common ancestor."
>
> The source they give for this is the venerable old Semino paper from
> 2000, "The Genetic Legacy of Paleolithic Homo sapiens sapiens..."
>
> So, let's see... OK, on the third page of that, it says, "Haplotypes
> Eu9, Eu10, and Eu11 share the 49a,f haplotype 8 or its derivatives,
> which are not observed in any of the other 16 Eu haplotypes, suggesting
> a shared common ancestry."
>
> Old-timers will remember that Eu9 = J2, Eu11 = G, and Eu10 includes all
> haplotypes that do have M89 (F) but don't have M170, M172, M201, M69, or
> M9. In other words, it is made up largely of J1 together with J*, F*,
> and these kinds of mysterious unclassified haplotypes.
>
> The questions left unanswered here have to do with what 49a,f haplotypes
> are found in the other haplogroups in this family, such as H, I, and K.
> And since apparently it's possible to tell which 49a,f haplotypes are
> derived from which, we need to see a tree showing their phylogenetic
> relationships.
>
> All right, the best approximation of that I've seen is in this paper by
> Al-Zahery, "Y-chromosome and mtDNA polymorphisms in Iraq." I highly
> recommend this paper for its explanations of the 49a,f polymorphism, and
> interesting data.
>
> The 49a,f haplotypes seem to consist of 5 bands, A,C,D, F, and I, each
> of which has a value from 0 - 4. 0 and 1 are the most common values.
> The one haplotype that's found in at least a few samples in almost every
> haplogroup from E to R, is ht25, which is 0-0-0-0-1. Ht 8 is 2-0-1-1-1.
>
> Ht 8 turns out to exist in F, G, J1, J2, and K. But it's by far the
> most common in J1 -- in the Iraqi data, where J1 is the most common
> haplogroup. Here is some of the data:
>
> # samples - haplogroup - 49a,f haplotype
> 1 F - ht 8
> 3 G - ht 8
> 1 I - ht 12 (3-0-1-1-0)
> 46 J1 - ht 8, etc.; see below for breakdown
> 35 J2 - ht 7, ht 8, etc.; see below...
> 2 K* -ht 8 & ht 25
> 10 K2 - ht 13 (3-0-1-1-1)
>
> ...I'm omitting other haplogroups in E and R, which are more distantly
> related. It's true that in this data, these other haplogroups include
> no ht 8.
>
> Breakdown of J1:
> 43 ht 8
> 1 ht 6
> 1 ht 2
> 1 ht 25
>
> Breakdown of J2:
> 28 ht 7 - the interesting thing about ht 7, 2-0-1-1-0, is that it exists
> only in J2 and is considered to have arisen within J2 out of ht 8.
> 2 ht 8
> 1 ht 12
> 1 ht 24
> 1 ht 30
> 1 ht 81
> 1 ht 89
>
> The trouble about evaluating their claim is that I don't have enough
> information on how these haplotypes mutate and which are considered
> derivatives of which.
>
> And the sample sizes in *this* data are of course insufficient for G and
> I. But the claims made by Semino and Underhill seem to be based on a
> lot more data -- only it's never published! The crucial thing to see
> would be that haplogroup I includes no ht 8.
>
> It looks like we need to get ahold of some of this data, and find a way
> to create more. We have wished for this a number of times on this
> list: someone who can offer us 49a,f typing. Let us ask David Faux if
> his lab folks might look into this. It would give a whole other
> dimension to our efforts to sort out the people whose haplogroup isn't
> clear, not to mention shedding new light on the phylogenetic tree of SNPs.
>
> Bonnie Schrack
>
>
>
> ==============================
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