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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2005-06 > 1119597364


From: "South" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Haplogroup F* (and a similar situation in K)
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:16:04 +1000
References: <LPBBIOAAMGMFKIJPLJBCOEPFDMAA.dclwilson@earthlink.net>


David,

Could you send me the link to Andrew's site?

All the best.
Grant South

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Wilson" <>
To: <>
Sent: Friday, June 24, 2005 4:44 PM
Subject: RE: [DNA] Haplogroup F* (and a similar situation in K)


> [Please excuse if this turns out to be a dupe post. The first submission
> seems to have died in cyberspace.]
>
> This is both interesting and timely, because there is a similar
> consideration of a mystery haplotype going on in the K cluster right now.
>
> Andrew Lancaster recently put up a web page dealing with several
> individuals
> with roots in Scotland (and possibly Ireland) who share the unusual 15,15
> doublet at 385a,b. Family Tree DNA originally projected that this group
> (which now includes just over a dozen members if you include the exemplars
> found in SMGF) was Q3 -- Native American.
>
> One of this group, a member of the Wilson Surname Project and native of
> Scotland, found this estimate unlikely. A couple of years ago he ordered
> the
> P25 SNP test (for R1b) and it came back positive.
>
> Subsequently, FTDNA undertook a structured analysis of this haplotype as
> part of an internal study program of unusual haplotypes. This time the
> Wilson came back negative for P25. He was positive for M9 (K) and negative
> for SNPs identifying L M N O and P (which includes Q and R).
>
> Despite the negative P result, FTDNA has now initiated an additional SNP
> test for Q. This seems to suggest that they are willing to consider the
> possibility that their P result was a false negative. (They tested P27
> rather than M45, though Bennett has referred to M45 as a P designator in
> correspondence.)
>
> The Q proposal is not an unreasonable suggestion, thought Q3 was and
> remains
> pretty unlikely given the geographic origins of several members of this
> group. I suppose we are a few weeks away from having more input on this
> question.
>
> Another 15,15 Wilson has just ordered the Q3 SNP test. The Q and Q3 tests
> should together shed some good light on this peculiar haplotype.
>
> As to the error rate question, two things should be said: First, we have
> both a P25+ and P25- result for the same man obtained at different times.
> One of them is wrong. Second, we have a P27- report on the man that MAY be
> incorrect. The Q and Q3 results will say something about that. If either
> the
> Q or Q3 test comes up positive, that will condemn the P27- result. If the
> Q
> and Q3 tests both come up negative, the P27- value will gain some support,
> but won't be proven because of the ambivalent P25 results. If a retest on
> R1b (or maybe a new test on R or R1, for variety's sake) produces another
> negative, this unusual 15,15 cluster cannot be identified any more
> precisely
> than K*.
>
> David Wilson
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bonnie Schrack [mailto:]
> Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2005 5:48 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: [DNA] Haplogroup F*
>
>
> Gareth wrote:
>
>>
>> another possible explanation for the similarity of the F* haplotypes to
>> groups G to K is that there are as yet undiscovered SNPs downstream to
>> P14/M89 (defining macrogroup F) but upstream to the SNPs currently
>> defining
>> the main haplogroups i.e.M201 for G, M69 for H, M170 for I, etc. Some of
>> these could be shared by two or more of G to K (just as M214 links N
>> and O),
>> others could just add a new level to one of the groups in the same way
>> that
>> M343 added a level to R1b. The F*s who were positive for a "shared" SNP
>> would have to be redefined as e.g. IJ*.
>> I think this is more likely than back mutations on critical SNPs.
>
> I second this! Good thinking, Gareth!
>
> As I wrote earlier, a slightly different but related idea,
>
>> Who knows, there could still be several small haplogroups, like F1,
>> downstream of F, that still haven't been discovered.
>
> And the existence of a superhaplogroup that includes I and J has, I
> think, been proposed. I think I read this a long time ago in some
> earlier papers -- don't know whether the idea was dropped as unlikely,
> or what.
>
> Bonnie Schrack
>
>
>
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