GENEALOGY-DNA-L ArchivesArchiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2005-06 > 1119661214
From: "Glen Todd" <>
Subject: RE: [DNA] Haplogroup F*
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 19:00:14 -0600
> These might be a very basic questions, but how exactly
> has it been determined that haplogroup I was not
> "indigenous" to the British Isles? Furthermore, the
> definition of "indigenous" is a bit problematic.
This is more or less the question that I asked. It seems to me that
simply saying that R1b is 'indigenous' and that haplogroup I came with the
Viking invaders is exactly the kind of chauvinistic oversimplification that
I've been accused of by several people.
> The definition in Webster's New World Dictionary:
> "Existing, growing, or produced naturally in a region
> or country; belonging to, as in native."
> How in the world does this apply to haplogroups within
> the British Isles? If a haplo. G British individual's
As I argued at length in another post, I don't think that 'indigenous' has
any real meaning, especially in the discussion of genetics, unless one can
qualify it by including a reference timeframe.
> And since the archaeological record speaks to
> significant connection between the British Isles and
> mainland France & Spain dating back at least to 4000
> BC, how could you possibly determine that your R1b or
> I came over during an historical period invasion
> versus thousands of years ago?
I think that the answer to that and similar questions is; you can't. If
you're lucky enough to have some close (NOT exact) matches with a TMRCA in
the time frame that you're interested in and have corroborating historical
evidence you may be able to make a reasonable guesstimate as to WHERE a
particular line was around the time that a particular split took place (as
I'm doing with my Normans), but you need a lot more than just a haplogroup
For example, my genetic distance to the Tavernier line that I've taken so
much flak about is four. That puts the best probability of a TMRCA, if
I'm understanding all this correctly, somewhere in the window of time
between when Hrolf Rognvaldsson became 1st Duke of Normandy and the time
that William de Normandie and his merry men arrived in England. That
doesn't mean that my Todd ancestor arrived WITH William; there's still a gap
of 250 years before the first records of the name appear in Yorkshire. It
does help to set an approximate timeframe, though. I also have an Irish
line (currently in Ireland and first documented ancestor in Ireland) that is
also distance 4, and their family lore holds that the family came to Ireland
from Normandy by way of England sometime around 1200CE. Another Irish
distance 4 is 25/25 with the above. I also have several distance three
hits in this country that don't know where their old country ancestors came
from, but I have various reasons to suspect that they will turn out to be
either northern England or lowland Scotland.
Again, though, it takes considerably more than just a haplogroup assignment
to tell this.