Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2005-06 > 1119735017

From: "David Wilson" <>
Subject: RE: [DNA] E3b (WAS: Genographic Project Y-12 Results)
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 14:30:17 -0700
In-Reply-To: <001901c579b6$eaf43990$6501a8c0@sonata>


If you haven't already discovered the links by exploration, Family Tree DNA
has a library of research papers available on their web site. The link is at
the bottom of the right side of their start page.

In their collection is this document, which you may find interesting:

This is a very good E3b overview, but read it with one caution: the authors
(Cruciani et al) interpret the M35 SNP to represent clade E3b1, not simple
E3b as the NG report has it. So there is a potential for clade confusion
that you need to keep in mind. If you focus on the SNPs like M78 and M81
rather than the associated YCC labels, you should be able to keep the
hierarchy straight.

I suspect your haplotype belongs to the M81 subclade -- E3b2, or what
Cruciani and his co-authors call E3b1b. I can't show you a similar haplotype
that has been SNP tested as belonging to M81, but I can show you some
associations that point in the direction.

First, the values DYS391=9 and 385a,b=13,14 or 13,15 seem to be good
indicators for your particular variety of R1b and distinguish it from other
varieties. The most common E3b variety seems to have DYS391=10 and higher
values at 385a,b -- 16,18 or 17,18 for example.

Ignore for the moment your 389ii value of 31 and your DYS19 value of 14.
Search on the other values at YHRD, and you should see a cluster of hits in
Iberia and in northern Africa westward from Tunisia.

Now with that picture in mind go to the distribution table in the Cruciani
article and see where he found exemplars of the different SNPs. You will see
that in Europe there is an Iberian concentration of the M81 exemplars.

This isn't proof, but it's a pretty interesting correlation. I don't see any
better correlation in the Cruciani and YHRD distribution pictures.

Is there an alternative explanation? Maybe. The M78 subclade (that's E3b1 in
the conventional designation, but E3b1a in Cruciani's terminology) is
represented by four observed clusters that are designated alpha through
delta. Specific SNPs are not associated with any of these clusters at
present. It may be the case that the modal haplotype for the E3b1-beta
cluster is similar to the E3b2 modal haplotype. If so, you it is possible
you belong to the M78-beta cluster rather than M81.

Cruciani found representation in Sicily for both M78-beta and M81 -- but
only one example of each in a sample set of 136.

Excuse me if I beat a dead horse, but E3b1-beta in the non-Cruciani system
is NOT repeat NOT the same thing as E3b1b in Cruciani's labeling. I wandered
directionless and unproductively in this hierarchy for longer than I care to
report before I realized that. The beta cluster is in the M78 clade
regardless of what label you give it. The other haplogroup belongs to M81.

The weak part of the case for assigning you to M78-beta lies in the YHRD
distribution. Unless M78-beta is really rare, you would have expected to see
at least a couple of hits in Sicily if this haplotype is somewhat similar to
the modal M81 pattern. They aren't there.

In either case, given the Tunisian hotspot Cruciani identifies for both of
these groups, it is only a hop, skip and jump to Sicily.

Let me encourage you to think in terms of a SNP test for M78 and M81 to
resolve this question. I suspect it won't be long before you hear news of a
company that can do that analysis for you.

By the way, I just found my first E3b ancestor recently -- a remote
grandparent along a matrilineal line. Based on the haplotypes of his
descendants, which are similar to yours, I think he was an M81.

David Wilson
Wilson Surname Project Co-administrator

-----Original Message-----
From: musso1 [mailto:]
Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2005 11:52 AM
Subject: Re: [DNA] Genographic Project Y-12 Results

Thanks Ken. I checked for the 20 most common haplotypes in Sicily.
Other than loci 392 and 393, none of my allele values appear more than 5
times among the top twenty most common Sicilian haplotypes.

My 389II value (31) appears only once, and my 390 value (24) and 385a value
(13) appear only twice.

Is this typical, given the variability of haplotypes in a population, or
does this indicate that I have an unusual haplotype for Sicily?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
To: <>
Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2005 8:19 AM
Subject: Re: [DNA] Genographic Project Y-12 Results

> Jim, You also should look into They have a database with over
> regional populations from different places in Europe --- and one of the
> regions is Sicily. You can ask the site for the 20 most common haplotypes
> found in Sicily, and/or look for matches or near matches to your
> It is perfect for looking for broadly defined haplotypes because they use
> few markers.
> Ken
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bonnie Schrack" <>
> To: <>
> Sent: Friday, June 24, 2005 11:05 PM
> Subject: [DNA] Genographic Project Y-12 Results
> > Hi Jim,
> >
> > You wrote:
> >
> > > My grandfather on my father's side was born and raised in Sicily
> > > before emigrating to the US. He spoke Italian and always considered
> > > himself to be Sicilian. If I'm understanding the various studies
> > > correctly, E3b/M35 is rarely found in Europe. Could it be that I'm
> > > actually in one of the subgroups of E3b, and the Genographic Project
> > > and its test simply isn't making that level of distinction? Is there
> > > any further test I can take that would definitively nail down the
> > > exact subgroup I'm in?
> >
> > I suspect you'll receive many replies to your query. Just to give you
> > something very quick, they are only going to give you the basic levels
> > of distinction in the Genographic Project, at this point, and anyway,
> > with only 12 markers, it can be tricky to do a lot more than that.
> > However, our E3b experts such as Ellen Coffman may be able to give you
> > an estimate of your clade (subgroup).
> >
> > Some clades of E3b are not at all uncommon in Europe, and if there is
> > anywhere E3b clades would be extremely typical, it would be Sicily. You
> > have a perfectly Sicilian result.
> >
> > We are awaiting the availability of more direct tests for the SNP
> > markers that define the specific clades. A list member, David Faux, is
> > starting a company to do just that.
> >
> > In the meantime, the best thing you can do if you're interested in
> > refining the estimate of your haplogroup, would be to have more markers
> > tested by one of the other companies. Have as many done as you can
> > afford, and these results will help us give you the best estimates of
> > which group you belong to, and which families you are most closely
> > related to.
> >
> > There are other southern Italian families who have had DNA tests, which
> > you might want to check out. Especially Louis Loccisano, who has tested
> > not just one, but all of his eight grandparents lines, many of whom were
> > from Calabria. He has at least one E3b line. You can read about some of
> > the results here:
> >
> > If you write to Louis, he'll tell you more about his results.
> >
> > Best of luck with your family history research! Good to have you on
> > board, and I hope you stick around,
> >
> > Bonnie
> >
> >
> >
> > ==============================
> > Find your ancestors in the Birth, Marriage and Death Records.
> > New content added every business day. Learn more:
> >
> >
> >
> ==============================
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