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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2005-06 > 1119830548


From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
Subject: Re: SNPs for Haplogroup I
Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 18:02:28 -0600
References: <062620052320.11387.42BF383E0005D95300002C7B2207001641050B989A0E00@comcast.net>


----- Original Message -----
From: "David Faux" <>
To: <>
Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2005 5:20 PM
Subject: [DNA] R1b1c


> Hello Listers:
>
> When checking my e-mail from an 18th Century villa looking out over
beautiful Lake Maggiore in Italy I received word that our lab had confirmed
that I am M269-R1b1c.
>
David,

I interpret your message as signaling you are back. So I'd like to lay out
what some customers in Haplogroup I could use, hoping that you will be able
to offer these SNPs. I do this through a List message so that they can
directly learn the possibilities rather than I having to relay any
information I would receive in a private message. I am sure if I miss some
SNP goals of haplogroup I folks, they'll let you know in additional
messages.

1. I have now acquired from DNA Heritage the complete 43 marker extended
haplotype for the M284+ sample provided me by Peter Underhill. I recently
put the whole haplotype out on the List. Although it looks to me primarily
like "Isles I1c" variety, it is not that far from "Northern I1c", and it
would be useful to definitively determine that other varieties like
"Northern", "Southern" and even "Root I1c" are not M284+ (or maybe are?).
So we can hopefully drum up some customers from each of the varieties of I1c
for the M284 SNP. It will be valuable to pin down who in I1c is M284+ and
who is not. Of course if you could ever get your hands on the primers for
P38 it would be sensible to have someone who is M223+ test for P38 to see if
FTDNA did the correct thing in renaming it I2. Amazingly, FTDNA has not
apparently done this simple thing, or if they have they are not telling.

2. There is the new Ix clade with very unique properties such as modal 10
at DYS455, 12 at 454, and 19,19 at YCAIIa,b; yet it has the traditional 13
at DYS388 and modal 11,13 at DYS392,393 for haplogroup I1b. At least one
person has been found with a haplotype in this clade who indicates a
positive P19 test result for haplogroup I. We would like to get several of
the folks in this Ix to test for P37 (for I1b), M223 (for I1c), and perhaps
even M253 or P30 for I1a if the previous two go negative. My hunch is that
Ix will be found to be negative for all three. It is too different.
Whether a brand new clade parallel to the three well known ones, or a more
archaic root clade, we would have I* or I1* which could be distinquished by
a P38 test if you can talk the necessary information out of Dr. Hammer's
lab? It beats me why he has not previously shared this SNP information with
the rest of the community.

Ix looks very much like the few SNP tested I* haplotypes in a Rootsi et al
database. There are just a few markers, but they added YCAIIa,b. This
small collection shows diversity at YCAIIa,b which covers I1b, I1a, and I1c;
and diversity at DYS388 covering the same. So the circumstantial evidence
indicates to me that Ix will turn out to be an archaic clade of haplogroup
I. Its haplotype pedigree geography suggests this also.

3. There is a haplotype which has been designated haplogroup F by FTDNA and
said by them to have been SNPed P19-, among other things. But this short
haplotype looks very much like an I1c haplotype. It would be informative to
have this haplotype tested for the alternative SNPs M258 and/or M170 for I,
and M223 for I1c. Perhaps there is something not understood about the triad
of "redundant" SNPs defining I --- P19, M170, and M258. Some have suggested
that P19 sometimes has reversions to the ancestral state?

4. I acquired a sample of an Estonian I1a4 haplotype (M227+) while recently
in Estonia. I am presently having a 43 marker extended haplotype measured
for it by DNA Heritage. Hopefully I will find a few markers where its
values clearly distinquish it from more normal I1a or I1a1? If so, we shall
be searching through Ysearch and Ybase for haplotypes which fit the I1a4
motif, contacting the owners and urging them to have a M227 test done in
order to improve our knowledge of this small but proven subclade of I1a.

5. Probably Mike Humphrey, and I for sure, would like an independent lab to
test us for M307. We are reported M253+, P30+, P40+, but M307-. This just
does not fit with what the journal articles have been reporting concerning
these "redundant" SNPs.

So there is a robust program of interesting things to do in haplogroup I
with some selected haplotypes and SNPs. Let us know what you can do.

Ken




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