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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2005-06 > 1119895140


From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
Subject: Fw: [DNA] P25
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:59:00 -0600


----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
To: <>
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2005 11:57 AM
Subject: Re: [DNA] P25


> Bill, Your sermons on SNPs should be mainly addressed to Hammer at
> University of Arizona and Underhill at Stanford and any other researchers
> who invest any time in discovering new SNPs. We have a scarcity of SNPs
and
> particularly useful or informative ones --- the dissection of the
haplotype
> population of Europe is at the moment being done at the frontier by
> examining the structure of extended haplotypes with many STRs. No lab can
> offer SNPs to be tested which have not been discovered, and we as
customers
> can't select SNP tests for purchase which have not yet been discovered.
>
> If you do happen to make any contact with Hammer or Underhill or anyone
else
> in a position to do something about the inventory of SNPs, tell them to
> always measure an extended haplotype for any new SNP so we know what
> sub-populations it might apply to; it is negligent not to do so.
>
> Ken
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lowe DNA" <>
> To: <>
> Sent: Monday, June 27, 2005 11:41 AM
> Subject: RE: [DNA] P25
>
>
> > Ken and David..
> >
> > You are both pushing in the same direction....perhaps the 700+ of us
> > here at this list can also get behind you and push too.
> >
> > Deep SNP testing is not an option, it is the only way to connect
> > recent with ancient.
> >
> > Point in question with our Stephens-Stevens project... We have recorded
> > at YSEARCH 4 "ancient lineages" or haplogroups and 5 unknowns:
> > E3b........(2)
> > R1b........(20)
> > I..........(2)
> > I1b........(1)
> > Unknown....(5)
> >
> > What am I to tell these 30 Stephens men when they don't match another
> > Stephens-Stevens
> > on 25 markers. Or the group of 7 Stephens men who match a Vaughan on 37
> > markers and
> > are all R1b. We need deep SNP testing to tell validate these matches.
Are
> > they
> > Stephens or Vaughans...???
> >
> > Or with my Lowes with haplogroup I that have genetic distances of 26 or
> > greater
> > at 25 markers. How to make sense of these comparisons. Deep SNP testing
> > might
> > help us "pigeon-hole" them into I haplgroup sub-clades.
> >
> > SNP testing must be pushed by us all if we are to ferret out the true
> > genetic
> > relationships of our SURNAME participants; and, to give a fuller
> > understanding
> > of their ancestry.
> >
> > Bill
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: David Faux [mailto:]
> > Sent: Monday, June 27, 2005 12:12 PM
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: [DNA] P25
> >
> >
> > Ken:
> >
> > I would be ok with a "High probability R1b1c" designation, but you can't
> > call yourself something for which there is no ultimate proof, only very
> > strong circumstantial evidence. SNPs define haplogroups.
> >
> > Chances are that most of the males on this list are 46XY. This is a
> > probabilistic statement since 1/1000 males are born 47XYY but the
> phenotypic
> > traits are too subtle to diagnose without a karyotype (typically done
via
> > categorizing and counting chromosomes under a microscope). I have been
> > karyotyped and can say with 100% certainty that I am 46XY - I suspect
that
> > everyone else within listening distance is using a probabilistic
statement
> > in relation to their non - autosomal chromsomes.
> >
> > David F.
> >
> >
> >
> > -------------- Original message --------------
> >
> > > David, I appreciate the addition of your company to measure SNPs that
> > other
> > > labs have so far refused to market. Your services can speed up our
> > > understanding of the peopling of Europe and other regions, and how our
> > > particular haplotypes fit into that larger picture. But you
consistently
> > > cast things too strongly in black and white extremes. Most folks with
> > > canonical haplotypes are not "simply guessing" about haplogroups if
they
> > > have not had the full battery of SNP tests. Their haplogroup
affiliation
> > is
> > > clear with high probability. There are all gradations of evidence for
> > these
> > > estimates, from the very reliable to the doubtful. And certainly the
> more
> > > difficult haplogroups to identify and the marginal haplotypes
> (especially
> > if
> > > they are whimpy short haplotypes) need either key SNPs or more key
> markers
> > > to confidently identify.
> > >
> > > And please, no appeals to the "proper authority". Ysearch is
overwhelmed
> > > with false haplogroup insertions based on the authorities. And no good
> > > estimate of the error rate in reported SNP results has yet come forth.
> > > Being an owner, myself, of a very questionable SNP designation as well
> as
> > > observing the many other foibles of the "authorities" is a sobering
> > reality
> > > check.
> > >
> > > Ken
> >
> >
> >
> > ==============================
> > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the
> > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more:
> > http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ==============================
> > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the
> > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more:
> http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx
> >
> >
>


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