GENEALOGY-DNA-L Archives

Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2005-06 > 1119896633


From: "Lowe DNA" <>
Subject: RE: [DNA] P25
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 13:24:08 -0500
In-Reply-To: <00e701c57b41$e5fef830$5a579045@Ken1>


Ken...

Never thought of myself as minister....just a
lay genealogist... DNA to me is a tool to ferret
out kinship and ancestry, nothing else.

If you can tell that your STR research can
identify R1b1c or E3b3a1 100% of the time, then
I will rest my sermons. Until then, we need these
deep level SNP testing to give us 100% accuracy.

A suggestion, we might query Dr. Hammer at the
2nd Annual FTDNA conference in November and
ask him to give an update on this area of SNP
identification and when these tests will be
available at the DNA testing companies....

However, as I proselytize and urge the 700
of us here to provide the affordable deep-level
SNP testing tools for us lay genealogists.

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Nordtvedt [mailto:]
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2005 12:59 PM
To:
Subject: Fw: [DNA] P25



----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
To: <>
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2005 11:57 AM
Subject: Re: [DNA] P25


> Bill, Your sermons on SNPs should be mainly addressed to Hammer at
> University of Arizona and Underhill at Stanford and any other researchers
> who invest any time in discovering new SNPs. We have a scarcity of SNPs
and
> particularly useful or informative ones --- the dissection of the
haplotype
> population of Europe is at the moment being done at the frontier by
> examining the structure of extended haplotypes with many STRs. No lab can
> offer SNPs to be tested which have not been discovered, and we as
customers
> can't select SNP tests for purchase which have not yet been discovered.
>
> If you do happen to make any contact with Hammer or Underhill or anyone
else
> in a position to do something about the inventory of SNPs, tell them to
> always measure an extended haplotype for any new SNP so we know what
> sub-populations it might apply to; it is negligent not to do so.
>
> Ken
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lowe DNA" <>
> To: <>
> Sent: Monday, June 27, 2005 11:41 AM
> Subject: RE: [DNA] P25
>
>
> > Ken and David..
> >
> > You are both pushing in the same direction....perhaps the 700+ of us
> > here at this list can also get behind you and push too.
> >
> > Deep SNP testing is not an option, it is the only way to connect
> > recent with ancient.
> >
> > Point in question with our Stephens-Stevens project... We have recorded
> > at YSEARCH 4 "ancient lineages" or haplogroups and 5 unknowns:
> > E3b........(2)
> > R1b........(20)
> > I..........(2)
> > I1b........(1)
> > Unknown....(5)
> >
> > What am I to tell these 30 Stephens men when they don't match another
> > Stephens-Stevens
> > on 25 markers. Or the group of 7 Stephens men who match a Vaughan on 37
> > markers and
> > are all R1b. We need deep SNP testing to tell validate these matches.
Are
> > they
> > Stephens or Vaughans...???
> >
> > Or with my Lowes with haplogroup I that have genetic distances of 26 or
> > greater
> > at 25 markers. How to make sense of these comparisons. Deep SNP testing
> > might
> > help us "pigeon-hole" them into I haplgroup sub-clades.
> >
> > SNP testing must be pushed by us all if we are to ferret out the true
> > genetic
> > relationships of our SURNAME participants; and, to give a fuller
> > understanding
> > of their ancestry.
> >
> > Bill
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: David Faux [mailto:]
> > Sent: Monday, June 27, 2005 12:12 PM
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: [DNA] P25
> >
> >
> > Ken:
> >
> > I would be ok with a "High probability R1b1c" designation, but you can't
> > call yourself something for which there is no ultimate proof, only very
> > strong circumstantial evidence. SNPs define haplogroups.
> >
> > Chances are that most of the males on this list are 46XY. This is a
> > probabilistic statement since 1/1000 males are born 47XYY but the
> phenotypic
> > traits are too subtle to diagnose without a karyotype (typically done
via
> > categorizing and counting chromosomes under a microscope). I have been
> > karyotyped and can say with 100% certainty that I am 46XY - I suspect
that
> > everyone else within listening distance is using a probabilistic
statement
> > in relation to their non - autosomal chromsomes.
> >
> > David F.
> >
> >
> >
> > -------------- Original message --------------
> >
> > > David, I appreciate the addition of your company to measure SNPs that
> > other
> > > labs have so far refused to market. Your services can speed up our
> > > understanding of the peopling of Europe and other regions, and how our
> > > particular haplotypes fit into that larger picture. But you
consistently
> > > cast things too strongly in black and white extremes. Most folks with
> > > canonical haplotypes are not "simply guessing" about haplogroups if
they
> > > have not had the full battery of SNP tests. Their haplogroup
affiliation
> > is
> > > clear with high probability. There are all gradations of evidence for
> > these
> > > estimates, from the very reliable to the doubtful. And certainly the
> more
> > > difficult haplogroups to identify and the marginal haplotypes
> (especially
> > if
> > > they are whimpy short haplotypes) need either key SNPs or more key
> markers
> > > to confidently identify.
> > >
> > > And please, no appeals to the "proper authority". Ysearch is
overwhelmed
> > > with false haplogroup insertions based on the authorities. And no good
> > > estimate of the error rate in reported SNP results has yet come forth.
> > > Being an owner, myself, of a very questionable SNP designation as well
> as
> > > observing the many other foibles of the "authorities" is a sobering
> > reality
> > > check.
> > >
> > > Ken
> >
> >
> >
> > ==============================
> > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the
> > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more:
> > http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ==============================
> > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the
> > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more:
> http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx
> >
> >
>



==============================
View and search Historical Newspapers. Read about your ancestors, find
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