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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2005-07 > 1120197877


From: "Lowe DNA" <>
Subject: RE: [DNA] A Convergence Between Haplogroup A Towards the AMH
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 01:04:39 -0500
In-Reply-To: <BAY103-F28FD5161533578028EB3BCEE20@phx.gbl>


Russ...

Must apologize if I sounded condescending... It was not my intent to
do that to anyone here at this list..

Wanted only to point out that all of us (me included) misuse STRs to
guesstimate
haplogroup...Won't work, never will.

STRs mutate independent of SNPS...so theoretically you could have someone
with markers two mutations apart on 37 markers and still be in TWO DIFFERENT
haplogroups. That is possible. As SNPs mutate independently of STRs.

The YCC consortium use only SNPs to define haplogroups and sub-clades...Has
nothing to
do with STRS. FTDNA's algorithm to predict haplogroup with STRS is "iffy"
and has
been wrong time many time when rereads are requested. (which is to be
expected).

That is why all us here are pushing deep-level SNP testing to end the
guessing with STRS. A genealogist, we want the facts, not guesses.

Personally, I would take the SNP test if someone told me that my haplogroup
was A or R1b. So, I disagree with the group as guesses are not my forte.

Thanks for your comments Russ. This is a good list to join.

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: Russ _ [mailto:]
Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 12:47 AM
To:
Subject: RE: [DNA] A Convergence Between Haplogroup A Towards the AMH


I wrote this earlier today, but it didn't make it to the list, so I'm typing
it again.

First of all, your response was very condescending-- particularly your use
of multiple no's and double exclamation marks. We newbies don't need them.
Otherwise, I appreciate the info.

Second, the haplogroups, I was speaking of were SNP confirmed. They came
from the haplogroup page at FTDNA, which only lists SNP confirmed samples.

As you say, one can use STRS to make guesstimates. I thought it was
extraordinary that a confirmed A haplogroup was only four mutations away
from a confirmed R1b haplogroup on a 12 marker test.

Which brings me to my original question of this thread. If someone in
Haplogroup A and someone in Haplogroup R1b can be only four mutations apart
on a 12 marker test, would it be beneficial to someone who is in the
Atlantic Modal Haplotype to take the SNP test to confirm his haplogroup as
R1b. The response answering my question so far has been no.


>From: "Lowe DNA" <>
>Reply-To: <>
>To:
>Subject: RE: [DNA] A Convergence Between Haplogroup A Towards the AMH
>Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:02:12 -0500
>
>Russ and Ken...
>
>Ken..you were very correct here..."Convergence" is just a poor choice of
>words with its connotations."
>
>Russ said.."It's worth noting that of the hundreds of matches up to four
>mutations away that a Haplogroup A has reconverged
>within four mutations. After all, with the exception of one O2, there are
>no
>other haplogroups that come so
>close, even though they have all diverged more recently than Haplogroup
>A..."
>
>No, No, No....STR markers can converge but they have NOTHING to do
>identifying haplogroup or sub-clades... Haplogroups and sub-clades are
>defined only by SNP......NEVER AND NOT BY STRS !!
>
>All of us, including myself, talk about haplogroup as "guesstimated" by
>STRS...However, until the haplogroup
>is identified by a SNP test, we are confusing all of the "newbies" with all
>of this talk about STRs and haplogroups.
>
>Bill
>
>
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