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From: "Lowe DNA" <>
Subject: RE: [DNA] A Convergence Between Haplogroup A Towards the AMH
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 14:23:41 -0500
In-Reply-To: <004e01c57e35$30ebe6a0$7302a8c0@YOURF8387228BF>


Phil...

I would be have to shown in black and white, how a STR mutation
would cause a SNP to mutate..or visa versa.

We are talking apples and oranges..

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: Phil Goff [mailto:]
Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 7:06 AM
To:
Subject: Re: [DNA] A Convergence Between Haplogroup A Towards the AMH


> STRs mutate independent of SNPS

> Bill

Do we know this statement to be a fact? Is there some degree of correlation?
In particular, I'm thinking of I1a in which there are no known instances of
DYS455=8 outside of this haplogroup. The question is whether the SNP
mutation that created I1a happened before, at the same time as (i.e. same
person), or after DYS455 mutated to 8.

If the SNP mutation happened before the DYS455 mutation, we should be able
to find instances of I1a with DYS455 equal to something other than 8. About
three weeks ago I made a discovery showing this statement to be true. The
caveat is that at least one of the known nine (including Pennington and
Thornton) surnames with DYS455=9 was apparently a very recent mutation.

If the SNP mutation happened in the same person as the DYS455 mutation, I
would theorize that nearly all instances of DYS455=8 would only be found in
I1a and not elsewhere and the percentage of DYS455 being equal to something
other than 8 in I1a should be very small.

If the SNP mutation happened after the DYS455 mutation, perhaps we should be
able to instances of F* or I with DYS455=8. This takes me back to a
statement I made recently that I suspect there are unrecognized instances of
F* in the various public databases, which are incorrectly estimated as other
haplogroups.

So far, the evidence is with statements #1 and #2, with #2 having the upper
hand. My sense is that STR mutations sometimes go together. Ken Nordvedt
recently uncovered an interesting instance of correlated doubling at 459a,b
and 464a,b,c,d and CDYa,b. Whether STR and SNP mutations may also occur in
unison, the jury is still out, in my opinion. If there is evidence to the
contrary, I am interested in learning more on this topic. Thanks,

Phil


----- Original Message -----
From: "Lowe DNA" <>
To: <>
Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 1:04 AM
Subject: RE: [DNA] A Convergence Between Haplogroup A Towards the AMH



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