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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2005-07 > 1120497084


From: "David Wilson" <>
Subject: RE: [DNA] Complete Scot R1b Variety
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 10:11:24 -0700
In-Reply-To: <000d01c5803e$3659f540$5a579045@Ken1>


Ken,

Thank you for summarizing this variety so clearly and adding the modal
values for the less frequently measured markers.

I have a question about "FTDNA conventions" for 461, which that company
doesn't measure. SMGF's "adjust for FTDNA" protocol increases the SMGF
determination for 461 by 1, but the last time I looked Ysearch/FTDNA let you
put in a number for 461 without suggesting how to handle data determined by
other labs. A few days ago I changed my 461 value in Ysearch from 11 to 12
to reflect consistency with DNAH reporting practice. (SMGF has me as an 11
at 461.) Is the modal value 11 you report for Scot 461 the straight SMGF
value or the adjusted value?

Have you yet taken a look at the variance for different markers in this
variety? It seems to me there may be some breadth to it. For example, one
North American Lovelace/Loveless family shows 24/10 but has 13,31 at 389 --
even a higher value for 389ii than the modal 30 you find. But these
Lovelaces (for which there is weak circumstantial and anecdotal evidence of
a Scottish connection) have 19,23 at YCAII rather than the 19,24 that seems
to be common in this Scot variety.

Along this same line, I have one Wilson with 13,30 and another with 13,31 at
389. They are both 25/10 at 390/391. But there are no Wilsons who show the
pure form of the variety you just described. They didn't measure YCAII.

The only 19,24 among R1b Wilsons is found in one who is 23/11 at 390/391. He
is also 13,29 at 389, so it feels to me as though this one is NOT part of
the cluster you described.

If you do get around to checking ASD for this Scot R1b population, I'd be
interested to hear your ideas about its relative age.

David Wilson




----- Original Message -----
From: Ken Nordtvedt
To:
Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 12:53 PM
Subject: A R1b Cluster


Several months ago I found that R1b haplotypes with the unusual YCaIIa,b
= 19,24 had the modal duo DYS390,391 = 24,10 instead of the Atlantic Modal
24,11 which predominates with the normal R1b YCAIIa,b = 19,23

I found a good number of other modal differences for the
DYS390,391,YCAIIa,b = 24,10,19,24 variety of R1b. Let's call it the "Scot"
R1b Variety

Scot is modal 13,30 at DYS389i,ii, while Atlantic is 13,29

Scot is modal 30 at DYS449, while Atlantic is modal 29

Scot is modal 15 at DYS456, while Atlantic is modal 16

Scot is modal 18 at DYS458, while Atlantic is modal 17

Scot is modal 12 at H4, while Atlantic is modal 11

Scot is modal 11 at DYS444, while Atlantic is modal 12

Scot is modal 11 at DYS461, while Atlantic is modal 12

Scot is modal 24 at C4, while Atlantic is modal 23

STR repeats are FTDNA convention, although most of the data searched was
from Sorenson database. A couple of these modal shifts are weak, but most
are very decisive shifts.

Both Sorenson and Ysearch show these haplotypes to come predominately from
Scotland, hence the nickname for the variety. Sorenson pedigrees show very,
very low occurence of the new variety in continental Europe.

Ken



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